1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Checking POI from Bench Rest or Standing?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by daptrap, Apr 6, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. daptrap

    daptrap Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2010
    Messages:
    82
    I understand most shooters feel that the proper distance to check POI is from 13 yards, correct? That I could comprehend well enough but should you not shoot from your normal set-up "stance" and shoulder the gun just as you would if "on the line" vs from a bench rest to get the true POI? It seems to me that you would get different POI if the gun is stationary on a solid rest and you take the "human element" out of the equation. Would appreciate some opinions.

    Don Piombo
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,847
    Yes, Don, the aim, though it's hard to achieve, is to take the human element out of the equation and determine, when the beads are lined up side to side and in the approximate vertical relationship to one another as when on the line, where it shoots.

    If you want to know how much the POI differs when standing, find out by doing both. If you take say ten shots under each condition, you can also tell how good you are at pointing the gun (and not jerking it off target) when standing vs off a bench.

    Do rifle shooters stand when "sighting in" a hunting gun? Why not?

    Neil
     
  3. daptrap

    daptrap Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2010
    Messages:
    82
    Valid point. No pun intended...
     
  4. brent375hh

    brent375hh TS Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Messages:
    292
    Competetive rifle shooters don't get their zero from a bench. They do it from "position" with a sling. The exception is of course bench rest shooters.

    They do it because a rifle has a slightly altered POI from position than from a bench. While you probably could not find enough difference in a shotgun due to barrel harmonics and recoil absorbtion POI changes that you will with a rifle at 200 to 1000 yards, I think you may as well find out how YOU shoot it.

    I would think you would have to really jerk the trigger, and violently convulse to notice any difference at 13 yards. If you do, you may as well be aware of it sooner than later.

    My.02
     
  5. jimrich60

    jimrich60 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2007
    Messages:
    810
    I have to agree with Brent375 here. While shooting from a bench/rest may help to find the "true" or mechanical POI of a shotgun, it will not necessarily find where the POI is when you are shooting in normal, off hand use, as it must be used in actual target shooting. This is certainly true for rifles. and I think also likely for shotguns. While a hunter may use a bench or rest to initially zero a rifle, the actual POI off hand may vary significantly, and thus you must shoot the rifle as it will be used in the field to actually know where the bullet is striking at your given zero distance. So too, your shotgun in my opinion, and that is the way I determine POI whatever the distance I use (13 yds for POI, 25-40 for pattern). If you cannot hold consistently at 13 yards, then you have real problems in target shooting to start with.

    Jim R
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,847
    Oh boy, Brent, you haven't seen experienced shotgunners try to shoot a paper target offhand. "Really jerk the trigger" and "violently convulse" is all you see until the shooter settles down.

    I think that the appeal of the "five shots at the same aimpoint" is entirely because the unarguable results of aiming at separate places make us look so bad. Five shots covers up the fact that we spray pellets everywhere.

    Some of the five-shot idea comes from a misunderstanding of an imaginary "Law of Averages," the belief that somewhere out there in nature is an invisible rubber band which, once you've misplaced a shot to the right, will tug the barrel back to the left for the next shot and so give you a proper "average point of impact."

    If Don just shoots both ways and enough shots to conclude something, he can see for himself what changes, what stays the same between bench and off-hand shooting.

    Neil
     
  7. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,328
    Location:
    Shawnee, Kansas, USA
    You're trying to establish where the gun shoots, not how good you are at standing still.

    You want to eliminate the human element.

    If you are doing this standing, and the gun consistently shoots a little right, is it because the gun shoots a little right, or is it because you consistently shoot a little right?
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,847
    How far would you guys estimate the "true or mechanical point of impact" varies from the "off-hand" point of impact? Assuming the shooter does it right, that is, mounts the gun and tries to remember what he or she sees and tries to duplicate it from the bench. Will it differ an inch? Several inches? Move right?Left? Why?

    I don't think you can answer any of those questions. I know I can't. But Don can. All he has to do is try it both ways. It will cost him ten extra shells. Not a big price to pay in light of what he may learn. Or not. And that's learning too.

    Neil
     
  9. daptrap

    daptrap Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2010
    Messages:
    82
    Interesting points of view gentlemen. I will indeed shoot from both positions this Thursday and will post pictures to see if there is a difference. New gun, never POI'd so this should prove to be an interesting experiment. My curiosity is peaked.

    Don Piombo
     
  10. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Messages:
    11,126
    Neil is right. Since I have a grease board at home, anytime one of "the crew" gets a new gun they come over to set up their POI. I do it standing and then on the bench. 14 yards and 28 yards.

    Sometimes it gets quite comical. I don't know if I would call it "target panic", but I've seen some nasty flinches, jumps, pulls, you name it.

    For me, my bench POI is the same as my freehand POI.
     
  11. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,226
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    I shoot rimfire and centerfire rifles off-hand, sitting, kneeling, prone and from benchrests. I don't change the crosshair for a different POI when changing positions. Why would you think a shotgun and slug or shotshell would be any different? What's different is possibly a bad trigger pull (too heavy?) or letting control of the gun get away from you when releasing the trigger? Another point, always wear good hearing protection, noise could cause you to pull the next shot off too.

    Hap
     
  12. TinMan88

    TinMan88 TS Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    979
    Dadtrap, I shoot my poi standing as at the line. I have more problems with stock fit than I do barrels that do not shoot to point of aim. Shooting off the bench first will tell you if the barrel/beads are factory correct but won't tell you what influence the stock or your hold MAY have on POI as you hold and shoot. Even your operating the trigger MAY cause a change (from bench rest). I agree- do it both ways and learn your gun. Regards, The TinMan
     
  13. 221

    221 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    4,736
    Learning how to mount and aim a long gun is half the battle to becoming a proficient shooter. Moving the comb to accommodate your improper mount is counter productive.

    Take a service rifle for instance or a small bore position rifle with peep sights.......You have to condition your self to mount the rifle properly, and consistently......not by adjusting the stock and rib or sights out of kilter.

    I think a lot of this ...."my gun hurts my cheek is from poor application of the rear sight.You should train yourself to find the proper position required for your face on the stock......planting the stock up against your cheek bone ain't it. Your cheek needs to be where it has to be, not where you decide to put it. You need to mount and align the gun properly

    Neal....I'm glad you made those comments .....Had I said those things, my pm hate mail would set a new record.

    Be Nice....%~)
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    When testing the POI from a solid rest (10 shots), I typically pull off one or two shots to the left. If I were standing, the accuracy of my POI measurements would be questionable. I test the POI to see where the gun is shooting. I look at patterns to see how my load is shooting. My scores tell me how I am shooting.

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,895
    Oh boy Neil, You've got tears on my cheeks from laughing. You and Setterman are dead on. Not for everyone, but for a lot of us. I am not going to tell the story about my getting the barrel bender again. People have to be sick of reading it, still available, unused, if you'd like to borrow it.

    Setterman, Neil has seen the jerk on the trigger and the other jerk holding the gun. Neither one is pretty.
     
  16. pheasantmaster

    pheasantmaster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,042
    Neil, you need to control yourself for a couple days before jumping in with your take on these topics. As per prior discussions, its entertaining for me to see how many have actually engaged in topic evaluation and who really have never done so!

    Don, I pattern standing up, using a ladder in manner of a benchrest setup for POI. Its not because I think it matters squat but rather that I think my body receives less felt recoil. Iam feel old and fragile!
     
  17. daptrap

    daptrap Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2010
    Messages:
    82
    Very good debate but my jury is still out. I have decided to add one more POI experiment all at 13 yards.

    1-Solid bench rest.

    2-Standing.

    3-Vertical rise to crosshair while standing(A vertical rise up a line on the board and pull the trigger as soon as I reach the "cross hairs" simulating a station 3 straight-away).

    results will be posted

    Don Piombo
     
  18. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    14,686
    Location:
    NW Wisconsin
    you guys don't want my opinion, but I do this stuff all the time
     
  19. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Messages:
    11,126
    We use a tall adjustable bipod for the freehand stuff, so even those shots aren't really "freehand". You'd be amazed how many guys struggle to hit the bull even with the bipod.

    It's worse when a group of guys are watching.
     
  20. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,457
    Location:
    SE PA
    That's the best way Don. When I want to see where my gun shoots, as in are the barrels converged properly, or do all the choke tubes shoot to the same place, I use a bench and solid rests. I don't actually care where the POI is vs. POA in this instance. All I care about is that they are all the same. I actually sight down the rib like it was a rifle. In one instance, I even used front and rear clip on turkey sights.

    After doing the above, I want to see where I shoot the gun. For that, I do my POI testing at 15 yards (anything between 13 and 20 will work), standing as I do when on the line. I mount the gun and trace vertical lines drawn on the target with the front bead, and fire at will. That tells me if my gun mount and pointing is correct left/right. Then I do the same with horizontal lines to see how high my POI is. Yes, it takes more shots, but you get an accurate answer.

    When I did this with my 20 gauge, it shot dead on from the rest, and 1" higher when standing. That's 3" higher @ 40 yards. That's actually where I wanted this field gun to shoot, so it was perfect.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.