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Cheating or Within the Rules?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Express, Sep 23, 2008.

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  1. Express

    Express TS Member

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    While at a shoot last week, I heard gumblings from other shooters. One squad re-squarded from a late handicap squad to an early handicap squad. They shot one of the last squads in singles. By doing this they also avoided the ugly bank that no one wanted to shoot. I looked at the program and it do not mention anything about re-squading. Is this OK to do, or should club managment not let these guys re-squad?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Management's call.

    HM
     
  3. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    express as far as I can tell there are no rules against it.

    Bob Lawless
     
  4. Bluzman98

    Bluzman98 Member

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    If something falls within the rules....it's not cheating. If there isn't a rule, then how can anyone call "foul"?

    JMHO

    Jim C
     
  5. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    Nothing new about this. It has been going on for years. And with the blessings of our wonderful BoD and EC, not to mention state and/or shoot officials. - Jim
     
  6. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Jim Elliott do I detect something else that you don't approve of? "And with the blessings of our wonderful BoD and EC, not to mention state and/or shoot officials."

    Bob Lawless
     
  7. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Jesus Jim, when are you going to start blaming the ATA, BOD, EC, Neil for the financial meltdown? Maybe you already have, I just haven't read the threads.

    There are a number of good reasons for shoot management to do this, and in many cases even encourage it. There are also a bunch of reasons for shoot management to allow it upon request. At a shoot this weekend I was happy to see shoot management being active in moving people around (after they had squaded, and after the event had started) in order to optimize the use of the available traps (and the available daylight). Made for a more pleasant and efficient shoot all the way around.

    I'm sure you've read the programs for most of the big shoots, they don't allow resquadding after you have paid, or attach a fee for doing so. I've been at satellite grands and wanted to change squads so I could shoot with someone that I didn't previously know was going to be around, but I'd already cashiered so I couldn't do it. Nothing keeping the 3-trap, 30 shooter club from doing exactly the same thing, although I'm not sure what it would accomplish.

    Maybe we should raise dues so we could have an ATA delegate travel to each shoot and make sure all the rules were being properly enforced, and take notes on what new ones we should have. We'd need the extra dues to pay for the jackboots and sidearms.

    Scott
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    As Scoot alludes, if the management of a particular shoot wants to discourage this, they can handle it (at least) two ways.

    1) Prohibit it in the program. This is sometimes more rigid than it need/should be, so more often they

    2) Charge to re-squad. For example, the Grand does this. Some state shoots do as well. It's best if some flexibility is written in - for example, if a shooter's gun breaks during the singles and it's still being repaired when the appropriate handicap squad is up do you really want to charge him to re-squad? A club officer can be occupied doing something that has to be handled _now_ - say repairing a trap or addressing a complaint or question - and so misses his or her squad. Should this cost him or her?

    Mostly, though, re-squadding simply makes no difference and need not be addressed. As was said in the '70's "Why travel heavy when you can travel light?"

    Neil
     
  9. Phil Kiner

    Phil Kiner Well-Known Member

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    While I do agree with Neil that it is a shoot management issue, I disagree that it doe not matter.

    There are several places that where you shoot gives a distinct advantage or disadvantage depending on whether or not you are in the "in crowd".

    This advantage is both in background and target setting and also sometimes type of trap (auto vs handset). The only way shooters can get shoot management to pay attention is to let them know that you will not be back if the problem continues and then vote with your dollar and don't come back til it is fixed.
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    True enough, Phil, some places it does matter. We both remember a Southeastern club which was a scandal but is now on the up-and-up as a result of shooter dissatisfaction and eventual ATA intervention.

    At the clubs where it is a problem, random drawing with a concomitant requirement that the first available squad be accepted goes a long way to solving it. Still, there _are_ shooters who will go back and back over and over again - we had a few at the Grand this year - pay the $25 per shooter to get what they want. We just let them. Other clubs may impose another policy.

    Neil
     
  11. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    I will make a couple comments. First, in my opinion, Mr. Winston has done an excellent job as the president of the ATA. But alas he only has one vote, and his tenure is now complete.

    Second, as mentioned there is a difference. Selection of banks and shoot times do make a difference. Tucson Trap and Skeet club does a great job in handling the matter at the Spring Grand. Banks are randomly drawn and changed daily. This should be the norm at all clubs. As Neil pointed out some shooters are willing to pay resquad fee's, in order to get what they want. Maybe those fee's should be increased. - Jim
     
  12. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    The objective of most clubs is to ensure the shooters have a good time at the shoot. If someone is miserable on a certain squad, we want them to be able to change squads and we are more than happy to help them do this. When an entire squad wants to resquad for the purpose of changing when they go to the line we may not be able to do that without disrupting the shoot and in most case we won't do it. This is a double edge sword though because if you refuse to resquad then you will have this group of malcontents with nothing better to do than complain (loudly) and that disrupts the shoot in another way. Fortunately these are the exceptions, most people make the best of whatever squad they are on,shoot when they are scheduled and realize that their own abilities as shooters will determine their standings. These kind of people are what motivates us to run the shooting club.... real sportsmen/women.
     
  13. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Jim -

    I think you're trying to build too much rigidity into the rules and not allow clubs enough lee-way to make their customers happy.

    If there is a rule about random bank draws, taking the first position available, the fee for resquadding, etc. then that means every club has to follow that rule unless you can define every possible circumstance that is an exception.

    Phil has it right - clubs run the shoots within the rules, and if in doing so they don't treat people fairly (perceived or actual) then they risk the consequences. There are plenty of disagreements already over various rules, and everyone's definition of "fair" is somewhat different. Make random bank draws a rule and it will make some people happy, but there will be another bunch that won't be (can't shoot by their camper, not enough shade, etc).

    Ultimately it's up to clubs to listen to their customers and decide what is best for their success. Trying to legislate everything isn't going to make that happen.

    Scott
     
  14. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    I have shot some of my best scores at Missoula Montana where there is a very obvious difference between the 8 traps on the West in the gulley and the 8 traps on the East side that are up top. The Missoula Club handles the situation very well by shooting 25 targets per trap and then skip a field so that you either shoot the whole West side or the whole East side. They also are very thorough in eliminating short squads and alternating between East and West sides for each Event.
     
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