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CHANGES OVER THE YEARS -- SECOND THREAD

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by phirel, Sep 16, 2009.

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  1. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Roger- Don't overlook another important factor in the number of grand slams. That is the number of targets many shooters shoot today. Twenty years ago it was difficult to find shooters who shoot over 10,000 targets a year. Now, it is common. This greatly increases the opportunities for shooters to achieve a grand slam. A shooter who shoots 60 handicap events in one year has more chances to break 100 than a shooter who only shoots 20 handicap events in one year.

    Pat Ireland
     
  2. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    Ihe speed of making quality reloads. Considering what it was like to make a reload 40 years ago, today it's a breeze. Even PW have improved the machines.
     
  3. Aussie Phil

    Aussie Phil TS Member

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    I didn't read the earlier thread, but I thought you might like to see some thoughts by someone fairly new to the sport. I've been shooting for about two years, and generally enjoying myself, but I have to say that I am considering stopping ATA shoots in favor of club and local area leagues.

    I've attended a number of ATA shoots over the last two years, and my scores have gradually improved, so I am now in B grade. What is frustrating is that no matter what grade I am in, a score of 99/100 wins. Also, people who continually beat me in the local leagues are still in D grade, while I have moved up to B. I am starting to wonder why I am paying fees for other people's trophy.

    The system seems to favor lower level shooters who suddenly pull out a massive improvement, not someone like me who improves gradually. I have pretty much accepted that it's unlikely I will win anything, as I am just on the cusp of getting moved up to A grade. I am still going to try my best, and I'll give it another year to see what happens.

    I've stopped shooting doubles for now to focus on singles and handicap. Perhaps I should practice outside of comp until I am really good, then come back in at D grade so I have a shot at winning. Is this what everyone calls sandbagging?

    I want to see trapshooting survive and prosper, but it seems that unless you can shoot perfect scores you can forget about winning. I accept I don't have the mental discipline to shoot targets all day.

    As a final thought, I thought the "A" in ATA stood for AMATEUR, but I know that there are professionals who make their living from Trapshooting....

    Hope this is useful

    Phil
     
  4. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    Missed Some...are you kidding or are you serious? Just curious.
     
  5. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    Missedsome... Roger Smith and registered shooting is to a DB-81 what peanut butter is to jelly..... From what I have heard, Roger is the only top shooter ever to shoot a DB-81 and win consistantly. Rumor has it that Tom Wilkinson worked his single barrel to shoot 100% high..... Any truth to that Roger?? Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  6. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    Thanks Roger Smith, it's nice to hear the views of another great shooter on TS.com. JRM
     
  7. Bisi

    Bisi TS Member

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    I thought Roger Smith was the former president of GM, didn't know he shot trap.
     
  8. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Roger, I meant Tom Seitz. Tom Wilkinson did the barrel work on my DB-81. Dan
     
  9. Big Heap

    Big Heap TS Member

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    :


    Enshrined on August 13, 1996




    Kansas shooter Roger Smith began registering in 1967 after wife Mary’s brother, Mark Heinz, had introduced him to the sport a year earlier. Roger collected his first Grand awards after 200s in 1974--the Dayton Homecoming championship--and top AA laurels in the Singles Class race. In 1975 he ended as AA runner-up in the class l6s, and in 1976 be was fourth in AA of the class doubles after 98, and third in the High-Over-All with 966x 1,000.

    Smith moved to the top of the 1977 High-Over-All with 965, and he placed third in the Champion of Champions competition after 100 and seven overtime rounds. In 1979 he was a member of the victorious Southwestern fivesome in the Division Team Race, and in 1981 he secured runner-up in the Dayton Homecoming after breaking 200.

    The only championship target Roger Smith lost during the 1983 Grand American was his 30th in the title Doubles, and the resulting 399x400 stands alone as an All-Around record for the tournament. That same year Roger won the Clay Target crown with 75 in overtime following a 10-way tie at 200, and became the second 27-yarder to prevail in the Grand American Handicap, after a record five smashed 100 apiece in the field of 3,708. He lost his first bird in the GAH shootoff and posted 24 again in his second round for the victory. Just three other 399 All-Around scores had been recorded in all ATA shooting prior to Smith’s lone one at the Grand. In 1983 he also annexed Class AA honors in the High-Over-All with 980x1,000. The next two years he scored 976 and 971 for repeat wins of Class AA High-Over-All becoming the first to capture it two, and then three years straight.

    Roger contributed 200 to a Grand record 997x1000 squad in 1975’s class 16s, and he was on a perfect 500 quintet in the 1980 homecoming.

    Smith ended runner-up in the first Spring Grand American Singles Championship in 1977 after 200 and four extra rounds, and he snared the Handicap crown for 98 from 27 yards, won the All-Around with 394x400, and finished second in the High-Over-All for his 489x500. Three years later he captured the 16-yard title following 199 plus 50 straight, and in 1981 he earned AA honors in the Doubles Championship after a 99 tie for the crown and placed fifth in the feature handicap with his score of 97. He also was victorious in the Midwestern Grand.

    Roger collected three Southwestern Division championships: the All-Around title with 396 in 1980, the singles in 1982 with 200, and the handicap in 1985 with a 99. The 400 he shot in overtime for the 16-yard title set a record for off-the-Grand-American grounds.

    Smith earned his home state Kansas doubles and All-Around crowns in 1975 and 1976, and added the singles to the All-Around in 1977. He won the 16-yard championship with 200 again in 1981, and was winner seven years later with 199. His State handicap titles were in 1980 (99), 1981(97) and 1992 (98). He annexed additional twin-bird championships in 1978 (98), 1979 (97), and 1993 (98). He set a Kansas All-Around record of 394 in 1978, a score he bettered by one with a 395 the following year. He was the champ again in 1981 and 1988 with 392s, in 1989 with 388, and 1992 with a record-tying 395.

    Before the founding of the Amateur Trapshooting Association, just one other competitor had ever captured the Clay Target and Grand American Handicap titles the same year. The year was 1914 when the Grand was hosted by the Interstate Association. Woolfolk Henderson posted a 99x100 for the Clay Target Championship, and 98 from 22 yards in a Grand American Handicap field of 515.

    Roger Smith earned Trap and Field All-Around Average Awards in 1975, ‘76, ‘77, ‘78, and ‘81. He was named captain of the All-American team in 1984 based on his 1983 performance, was co-captain in 1978, and was selected for the team eight other times between 1975 and 1986.
     
  10. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    I KNEW he was pullin' my leg! Those Kansas boys...
     
  11. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Pat


    I find it interesting that you and Neil have the ability to analyze any number of things and present your results with clarity and then happily ignore the consequences of your vote to change the flight and angle rule.


    When the rule was changed you made the game easier and every indicator from averages, to the length of shoot-offs, to the increase in the number of grand slams reflects just how relatively easy the sport has become.


    You don’t need to look at the number of targets people are shooting today, or choke tubes, or ammo, or adjustable stocks as major contributors to the change.


    The major contributor was the rule change.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  12. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    LOL @ missed some. You are a character.
     
  13. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    missed some, before I'd go shootin with that guy again, I'd ask him why he enlarged that picture to an 8x11? :)

    Serious question guys, when did we add AAA classes to the bigger shoots?

    Pat, any idea when and why that 10,000 per year trend began? I do recall reading in T&F that more targets were being shot by less shooters also.

    Thanks Roger for sharing your thoughts with all of us peon trapshooters too!!

    Hap
     
  14. warren

    warren Member

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    I don't know about you guys but for me trap shooting is not any easier than it was 50 years ago, get all the fancy equipment you want but you've still got to put the gun on the target and pull the trigger at the right time.

    warren
     
  15. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Aussie

    In spite of what Roger posted, the vast majority of us cannot break in the high nineties consistently. But the targets are easy enough that if you have a good day, you will break those scores even if you are a B. C, or D shooter. At the bigger shoots, there are so many shooters that someone will have a great day.

    If you have a good day and shoot a 96 in C class you will not place. Yes, it is frustrating.

    The dilemma, and it is a huge one, is how do we make the game tougher, so that a D shooter cannot shoot a 100 on a good day to win, without driving away members.

    You see, you have worked hard to get to high B class. But tougher targets will put you back into D. That will be hard on the ego of many who will face similar reductions. It will be painful for 25 yarders to move back down to the 21 or 22 yard line after years of struggling to get so close to the 27. Think of the impact on membership.

    Yet, it is ridiculous to have to run 700+ birds to decide the singles champion.

    One option is to keep things as they are for singles. Everyone can keep their "feel good" averages; but reset the traps to wider angles and longer throws, for singles shoot-offs. This is not a problem at the Grand but could cause a small delay at smaller shoots to reset the fields.

    The idea I have floated here before is to allow reductions at 93% for anyone who wants a handicap reduction. People who want to stay at their "earned" yardage do not lose face and those who want to be more competitive can shoot from a closer distance. This will not help anyone shooting less than 93 from the 16 (with the "easy" targets we have now); but they are beyond help with any H/C system so far proposed in any case.

    Don Verna
     
  16. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the original intent of ATA shooting was to create a system to make everyone "feel" good about shooting near perfect scores. The system certainly wasn't perfect in the old days either but it worked pretty darned good for handicapping the most proficient shooters in the game and our history records prove that point. There's some important history written above too if one reads it? One more point, one lies the loudest when you lie to yourself and that seems to fit well in some of these discussions. It's up to our leadership to further handicap the most proficient shooters in our game, not make it easier! Pat makes a statement concerning the numbers of shooters now days shooting 10,000 targets per year as a shining example yet won't consider our historical numerical records to mean much without further "study?" Our delegates job is to see that the games rules are created and adhered to. Those changes aren't up to the membership at large either! That wasn't done in the past when most all the clubs were out and out cheating the accepted rule of more difficult targets. Those were the rules of the past that Roger Smith and many, many more followed in their record setting performances!!

    Hap
     
  17. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    Well said Mr. Hapney..... Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  18. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Trap2, for those who think barrel bender is mystical, ask Roger how Tom got that barrel to 100% on a one_of_a_kind piece...

    Then ask Roger what it took to be able to shoot his O/U barrels proficiently... It wasn't by the hand of a master!!!

    missed some, although you've hung with Mr. Smith, do you really know who this individual is and what he is capable of? Remember, you've gotten acquainted with him at an elderly stage of life and also when his memory is half gone...
     
  19. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    Martin... Don't tell me it is one of those "bent it on the bumper" stories? I've seen a few things Earl Scripture did to a couple of his guns and couldn't believe it when I saw it happen. Even better, I couldn't believe that they all worked!!.... Dan
     
  20. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Trap2, Roger should really explain but as I recall, Tom did use a vice. As for the O/U, probably one you haven't heard, blacktop. But Roger can explain both, especially the O/U.
     
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