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CG v. QSC (new iteration, 300+ is too long)

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by goatskin, Oct 11, 2009.

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  1. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    <blockquote>Gene7s: <i> ... -- that they changed the report after CG filed a lawsuit--- so what? and much more importantly- how do you know this? </i></blockquote>

    Some things are coincidental and some are not, however ALL behaviour is caused.

    CG asked the Magistrate Judge for a TRO enjoining QSC from continuing to defame them on their website. CG's lawyers screwed their opening salvo up, and it was continued for a week and given to the presiding judge.

    Within that week, QSC added cautionary language to their site, added prefatory comments to the report and provided a pointer to CG's response.

    One can (I think) safely assume QSC has competent legal counsel that suggested that a good idea was a good idea, regardless of the source.


    Bob
     
  2. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Bob you misquoted me-

    The issue is simple- did CG sue gunowners and a gun club for a good faith report that was required by military authorities--- ?

    Will it hurt the value of their guns?

    You- bob lawless- jim rich (who uses his suspect military credentials that he flaunts and uses as expertise) and a few others want to come up with some conspiracy theory---

    The above are the issues and below is the discussion on the last few points.

    thanks and regards from Iowa

    Gene





    Subject: CG suing Quantico
    From: ivanhoe
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    Date: Sun, Oct 11, 2009 - 08:03 AM ET
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    Charles.F.Phillips

    "You still don't get it because what you said to Harry was a personal attack and you STILL haven't manned up and apologized"

    No Charley you still don't get it I haven't apologized because I am not going to DO YOU GET IT YET? When you become my Daddy you can tell me how to act until then you need to get it.

    "instead you've turned your attacks on goatskin and I. Bad form, sir."

    Bad form your opinion!!!!! Which with a buck will get you a cup of coffee. As far as attacks on you and goatskin are concerned. If you had stayed out of my comments to harry then I wouldn't have had to tell the two of you to buzz off. Of course you can't except the fact that the comment was not directed at you there for unanswerable by you.

    That of course just doesn't seem to be within your realm of comprehension. So there is only one way to say it BUTT OUT. He is a big boy he can give his opinion then he can answer for what he has to say. I have to, as proved by your constant attempt at playing Harry's protector.

    Are you starting to get it yet he said it I took offense and made a comment and you in your holier than thou attitude have appointed yourself in charge and I am supposed to except your self appointed Lofty opinion as law.

    Well guess what I am not under your jurisdiction you are not my adviser, mentor, or boss. I am sorry you don't like that but that is life you will have to live with it, Like it or not. Do you get it yet it isn't going to happen so leave it alone.

    Bob Lawless




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    Subject: CG suing Quantico
    From: jimrich60
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    Date: Sun, Oct 11, 2009 - 08:59 AM ET
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    Hi,It's my opinion that CS has a duty to take into consideration all the possible ways they can think of that their shotgun could fail and injure someone and design accordingly. They know that ammunition can be defective and must be accounted for in their shotgun design. They know double charges are possible and can be unintentionally fired. They have a duty to see to it that their shotgun design can withstand this possibility. It's obvious that the shotgun failed. Bringing a lawsuit against the gun club does not eliminate this duty or make a bad design great. Harry Lyga

    Harry, stop and think this one through a bit more. If CG had to design such a shotgun, they simply would not be able to sell shotguns at all. And if the maker of one item has to make a product that is completely idiot proof, why not all makers of any product that someone can misuse to hurt themselves or someone else. That would mean, for instance, that you have to give up your stove, since idiots manage to burn themselves regularly, start fires that burndown houses, and do a lot of damage in general. How would you design a stove that cannot be misused. How would you design a car that cannot be crashed by some idiot, or driven into a tree, or off a cliff? These products are regularly taken beyond their design limits by those who simply don't obey safe practices. How about hot drinks such as coffee or tea, or whatever. People regularly do stupid things like spilling them on themselves, or others. How would you design this? So no hot drinks ever again. No hot water for the house either since that can be, and is sometimes abused as well. And this list would go on and on and on. Just about everything we own or use in this world can be dangerous if someone does not follow instructions, use safe procedures, or obey the warning instructions. Even pencils would have to be banned in the world you seem to advocate since kids and adults have been harmed by misuse of a pencil-eye poked out, etc. How would you require the maker to design a pencil that could not be misused?

    The basic problem in all these ideas is that many simply do not accept responsibility for their actions. All these firearms are perfectly safe, if the rules are followed: i.e.; load only approved SAAMI spec ammunition and obey every and all safe reloading practices. If, in very rare cases, an individual item can be shown to have a defect, then yes, the maker can be held liable. IN the QSC case, not one shred of evidence has been produced to show that, or even, at this point , point that way. The gun has not been subjected to lab analysis and may never be. But we do know reloads were used, and we also know reloads can and sometimes are done wrong. we also know no CG has ever blown up with factory ammunition. This ought to say something to all of us.

    Jim R



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    Subject: CG suing Quantico
    From: GN7777777
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    Date: Sun, Oct 11, 2009 - 09:14 AM ET
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    Bob Lawless and Jim Rich-- you guys are totally missing the point

    Do you own CGs? I think their resale before this happened was bad. Imagine what it is going to be like after they start suing a group that could be their potential customers.

    Now the point of the thread was really to inform that CG had sued a gun club.

    The gun club was acting as required by the military to do a safety report. They did that in good faith. The normal thing is that report is reviewed and if some immediate ban on equipment is needed it is made, possibly pending a further investigation.

    Thats it- plain and simple--

    CG shouldnt have sued- they are missing the point also. The ban might have been resolved in their favor, and they might have been totally exonerated.

    This isnt a criminal trial- you dont point your finger at something else to attempt to change the current decision of temporarily banning this gun.

    CG wont win the suit- you cant force the military to lift the current ban-- wake up and smell the roses-

    Even if they did win a suit after a sustained period of time(which in my opinion will never happen) they have sued their customers and potential customers all over the US.

    Your continued arguing about what the club did wrong is without the background or information.

    Now the report has been accessed by countless other people- and that will spread- people will resend the site or information-- you two have essentially shot yourselves in the foot as well as other owners of CG's by raising this debate to issues that arent even relevent. You have drawn more attention to the main issue but also cast some doubt on the safeness of CGs (because people reading this debate that wouldnt have read it now have opinions on both sides of that issue)

    regards from Iowa -

    Gene


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    Subject: CG suing Quantico
    From: mx2k33
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    Date: Sun, Oct 11, 2009 - 09:24 AM ET
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    What does everyone really think QSC was trying to accomplish by posting its "investigation"?





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    Subject: CG suing Quantico
    From: ivanhoe
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    Date: Sun, Oct 11, 2009 - 09:51 AM ET
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    GN7777777

    "Do you own CGs?"

    This question has what to do with the issue??????

    "The gun club was acting as required by the military to do a safety report. They did that in good faith. The normal thing is that report is reviewed and if some immediate ban on equipment is needed it is made, possibly pending a further investigation."

    Well Gene that is fine but tell me does the military require the report to be posted on the internet???? In your opinion if that report had not been posted on the internet would CG have had a reason to sue anyone????? Would there be a reason for this discussion?????

    "Even if they did win a suit after a sustained period of time(which in my opinion will never happen) they have sued their customers and potential customers all over the US."

    Please explain how that will happen by suing the authors of a military report which according to your opinion was required by the military?????

    My opinion is that if anyone is totally missing the point it is you not I.

    Bob Lawless





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    Subject: CG suing Quantico
    From: GN7777777
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    Date: Sun, Oct 11, 2009 - 10:11 AM ET
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    Bob- assumming you arent joking

    Why is it relevent if you own a CG? ANS. Some people might think you paid more than you should have for a gun that might be worth far less now. 1/4 according to you in another post I think?

    The report on the internet? ANS. I dont know if it is required or not but what I am sure of is the fact that many people have now accessed that report because of this continued debate on this thread that had no knowledge of it before. I can think of a number of good faith reasons to post it though. BTW posting is really a term that needs to be considered before casual use. By having a document available on a club webpage- one may go to the webpage and look at the report if it is of interest to you. Now you have made it interesting to an entire group of people outside the club by this debate and the may copy it and "send" it to other people, as opposed to "posting" it.

    Explain how they are suing potential customers. ANS. Anyone can put themselves in the situation of the gun club or authors of the report- thats human nature, so now they envision a gun company suing them or their club. Who wants part of that when you purchase a gun?

    Bob- you and Jim Rich are missing the point big time.

    regards from Iowa

    Gene


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    Subject: CG suing Quantico
    From: Baron23
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    Date: Sun, Oct 11, 2009 - 10:45 AM ET
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    I will break my previous commitment to only post to this thread once.

    I find that if I can wade through some people's endless efforts to justify themselves in personal terms with those that disagree with them, then there are some interesting and substantive ideas put forth from time to time that deserve further discussion.

    In particular, from an ENGINEERING and GUNSMITHING point of view (vice the legal opinions on liability coming from lawyers and those who think they are lawyers), are there specific and time proven objections to barrels soldered into a once piece monoblock from a safety point of view. This was, if I am correct, alluded to by Harry (Hal1225).

    Although my knowledge of shotgun barrel assembly design is limited to that of a shotgun enthusiast, it appears to me that the technique of soldering barrels into a milled monoblock is ubiquitous these days. Not sure who, if anyone in the world, is milling a complete barrel assembly out of one contiguous piece of metal.

    Harry, is it your assertion that such a design is inherently insufficient from an engineering view or are you basing you opinion that the design is not sufficient strictly on the objective evidence of at least one instance of one having failed catastrophically?

    Stephen Meyers




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    Subject: CG suing Quantico
    From: ivanhoe
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    Date: Sun, Oct 11, 2009 - 10:54 AM ET
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    GN7777777

    "Some people might think you paid more than you should have for a gun that might be worth far less now. 1/4 according to you in another post I think?"

    Gene that still isn't relevant to a suit by CG!!!! Also If the answer to the question do you own a CG? If the answer is no how does it relate to the law suit? If yes how would that change?

    "I don't know if it is required or not but what I am sure of is the fact that many people have now accessed that report because of this continued debate on this thread that had no knowledge of it before."

    Well Gene that is the point in a nutshell if this report had never been posted on the internet. The discussion on this site would not be in progress and there would be no reason for the Law Suit.

    Thats the point I am seeing. I wonder if you would be so quick to blame the gun company if it had been your beloved Krieghoffs

    Now some questions for you how can anyone let alone a safety report that has no listed experts at anything other than range safety. Determine that the gun and not the reload or hand load if you choose is at fault?

    If it wasn't at fault why ban it?

    If nothing else the suit if done properly will at least clear the air about whether the gun was at fault or not. Just remember if you put 5000 shell through a gun and one shell then blows it up doesn't that make the shell at least just as suspect??????

    Bob Lawless




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    Subject: CG suing Quantico
    From: jimrich60
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    Date: Sun, Oct 11, 2009 - 11:07 AM ET
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    Sorry Gene

    In this case, neither Bob Lawless or I have "missed the point" Our point, in actuality begins with the QSC. In fact, they were required to investigate and report on the incident. However, when you do investigate a safety incident or accident on a military base (and I have done several, from small safety accidents to a full blown aircraft accident investigation where an F-5 crashed on a training mission, killing the pilot). The latter required thousands of hours (among all team members) looking at every facet of the flight operations, pilot training, aircraft maintenance, aircraft construction, metalurgy, you name it. So I think I have the background, training, experience and judgment to understand what is required in a "military" accident investigation. And I will say this once again (and I intend no slur upon those who did the investigation-they simply did not have the training or qualifications to be given this job) The QSC report did not meet any standards of evidence and proof I ever followed or was held to in military investigations. And no, there was, and is no requirement to publish the report on the internet. The club chose to do this as a way to "easily" inform their membership. Whatever the good faith of the investigators, they chose to go public with a poorly done investigation, with conclusions based upon zero facts and evidence. That was, and is the point you seemed to have missed in reading the entire thread.

    Further to the point, CG is not suing based upon the guns being banned. The lawsuit (whether or not it was wise, or should have been done is another question altogether) is based upon the QSC conclusion (and I am paraphrasing here) that the accident was basically caused by some unknown manufacturing fault or defect. It is easy for those of us who have no stake in this to criticize CGs decision, but what would you do if your business, your livelihood, indeed your job were in possible jeapardy due to something like the QSC report being publicly distributed? The choices might not seem so easy then I think.

    CG is trying to protect itself, and its customers/CG owners. Whether they succeed or not or even whether there might have been a better way is a question, but don't think I have enough inside knowledge to second guess them. What I can (and have tried to do so) address is the issues of how to help prevent future accidents of this nature. I have done this by suggesting repeatedly that the CG shotgun needs urgently to be subject to full, independent laboratory testing (sadly, I doubt this will now happen). But I also have tried to point out the real likelihood of the reloads being, at least partly, at fault, and the urgent need to fully understand reloading and the dangers posed. I also, in this vein, have tried to get the point across that if you or I choose to ignore warnings and cautions (whether from the maker of a reloader, or powder company, or any other component maker, or from the gun maker) then we have a moral obligation to accept the consequences of our own actions. Not try to blame someone or something else for what we choose to do.

    That is the point, and I do not think I have missed it in any way.

    One last comment on your implied slur about CG ownership. NO, I do not now, nor have I ever owned a Guerini shotgun. I do believe from all that I have seen, from having spent some time at CG usa at THE 2007 Grand American talking with these folks, and examining their guns, that they produce and market a fine shotgun. But that is my personal opinion, not based upon metalurgy, lab analysis, or other "hard" evidence. What hard evidence do you have or go by to the contrary?

    Jim Richardson Major, USAF (Retired)



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    Subject: CG suing Quantico
    From: GN7777777
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    Date: Sun, Oct 11, 2009 - 11:23 AM ET
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    Jim I would normally just let your comments go however.

    One can read your previous posts and see you are changing your tune significantly. Big time.

    Regardless, lets just talk about your allegations in your last post- which is much closer to the mark then some of your previous ones.

    1. I would be willing to bet that this is only the initial report, required by the safety office. The club is not a military organization and these people werent appointed on orders to do a formal investigation. Unless you know something to the contrary, as a military person you should know this.

    2. I doubt, as a Major in the Air Force,
     
  3. jimrich60

    jimrich60 Member

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    Gene

    Odd the Wing Commander never told us there was a secret, invisible member of our accident investigation board. Just what unit did you command in the 4510th Combat Crew Training Wing (CCTW).

    I try very hard not to attack or even respond to anyone in personal way, but you, sir, are so full of B.S., I am left speechless.

    Jim Richardson
     
  4. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Jim I would normally just let your comments go however.

    One can read your previous posts and see you are changing your tune significantly. Big time.

    Regardless, lets just talk about your allegations in your last post- which is much closer to the mark then some of your previous ones.

    1. I would be willing to bet that this is only the initial report, required by the safety office. The club is not a military organization and these people werent appointed on orders to do a formal investigation. Unless you know something to the contrary, as a military person you should know this.

    2. I doubt, as a Major in the Air Force, that you did any investigation on an F-5 crashing. You may have played a small part (very small) in looking at something or providing some information as part of the investigation. If I am wrong and you were in charge please correct me. Please tell us what your area of expertise, experience, education, and training is also, so we can validate your opinion, if it is as an engineer.

    3. What were CG's (and for that matter- your) alternative? ANS. Just let the process work its course, not sue gun owners and a gun club and not complain about a good faith report, meant to safeguard against any immediate possible danger to club members and the public on a military base.

    Regards from Iowa

    Gene

    PS- Air Force Investigations Course (Lackland Air Force Base), several accident investigation and reconstruction courses at Northwestern in Chicago, accident investigation, supervision and reconstruction course at the Army Safety Center, and various reconstruction courses at the Institute of Police Management in Florida. Oh- an engineering undergraduate degree, one graduate degree that deals with supervision of process, and a law degree. Oh also, a basic course, two officer advanced courses, command and general staff college, and the NATO War College. Not bad for someone that enlisted at 18 as a private in the infantry, but I dont offer up any of this, as you do, to discuss what the investigating team should or shouldnt have done. I just know when someone is likely blowing smoke about their military qualifications.


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    Subject: CG suing Quantico
    From: longshooter
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    Date: Sun, Oct 11, 2009 - 11:29 AM ET
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    jimrich60,

    Your bias is showing.

    Thank you, Longshooter




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    Subject: CG suing Quantico
    From: jimrich60
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    Date: Sun, Oct 11, 2009 - 12:00 PM ET
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    Gene

    You obviously have understod little, if anything, in my previous posts.

    The QSC report was not an "initial" or "interim" report until the CG lawsuit occurred. Then it was quickly changed to make it one.

    As for aircraft accident investigation boards, again you obviously have never been part of, or involved in one. The board members are composed of pilots, possibly one or more maintenance officers, and others as deemed necessary ranging from a Lt, to a full colonel. I was, at the time, the Foreign Officer Pilot Training Liason Officer at Luke AFB, and since the accident involved a Jordainian student pilot from Williams AFB , was appointed to the board at the direction of the Wing Commander. We did not, nor did we need, the involvement of a criminal investigator or air police. The needs and requirements of aircraft accident investigation don't have much to do with the criminal investigative techniques you seem so proud of. Whether or not justifiably, I will not comment on, since criminal matters and traffic accidents are not my field and I do not know what is required or needed in any given case.

    None of the officers appointed were "technically trained" in such issues as metalurgy aircraft construction, etc. For that, we had an entire staff of technicians, maintenance personnel, engineers, etc who were tasked, as we deemed necessary to perform what ever tests we wanted to see. It would take several pages to detail all those tests, reports, and other factual evidence we had to assess and make decisions regarding. In the end, based upon cold hard evidence, we concluded (and could show through actual evidence) the accident was pilot error. I am not about to try to lay out the case as it would take hundreds pages about pilot actions, gun camera films, aircraft control activating rod analysis, aircraft control positions, stress fractures, and dozens of others.

    It has become obvious to me that you know little of what is involved in this or any other technical issue raised, and understand even less. End of discussion.

    Jim R



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    Subject: CG suing Quantico
    From: GN7777777
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    Date: Sun, Oct 11, 2009 - 12:08 PM ET
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    Jim- by the way- you got caught blowing smoke

    Oh- the Army Safety Center trains on ground and air accident investigation, it has nothing to do with criminal investigation. In fact most of the training I was lucky enough to get had little if anything to do with criminal investigation. If was purely safety or reconstruction.

    I forgot- I attended the foreign military sales program management course at Wright Patterson AFB. Your part as the liason officer was very small in this investigation you are so proud of? Oh you may have had access to others work but you had no independent understanding of it, nor was your expertise sought on these technical matters. Blowing smoke again-

    Jim- where do you get your knowledge about what was in the report or how its status was changed?> And its good you know what the report "was before CG filed a lawsuit" -- how do you know this? I am pretty certain Marine Corps regulations spell out who does what. I think you are blowing smoke again.

    So this last little glimmer you are holding on to-- that they changed the report after CG filed a lawsuit--- so what? and much more importantly- how do you know this?

    regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  5. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    GN7777777

    "You- bob lawless- jim rich (who uses his suspect military credentials that he flaunts and uses as expertise) and a few others want to come up with some conspiracy theory---"

    Just out of curiosity what conspiracy would I be involved in with others? Gene as I don't see any thing by CG that could be classified as a conspiracy so I will need more information before your accusation can be address.

    "who uses his suspect military credentials that he flaunts and uses as expertise"

    Well that funny Gene because it amazes me that you would say that after you posted the following display of ???? Oh I know because you said it, it must be humility

    "PS- Air Force Investigations Course (Lackland Air Force Base), several accident investigation and reconstruction courses at Northwestern in Chicago, accident investigation, supervision and reconstruction course at the Army Safety Center, and various reconstruction courses at the Institute of Police Management in Florida. Oh- an engineering undergraduate degree, one graduate degree that deals with supervision of process, and a law degree. Oh also, a basic course, two officer advanced courses, command and general staff college, and the NATO War College. Not bad for someone that enlisted at 18 as a private in the infantry, but I dont offer up any of this, as you do, to discuss what the investigating team should or shouldnt have done. I just know when someone is likely blowing smoke about their military qualifications."

    As I see it Gene people that live in Glass houses shouldn't throw stone.

    Bob Lawless
     
  6. goose2

    goose2 Well-Known Member

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    jimrich60, I cant agree with what you said about GN7's more. He certainly would be a good candidate for the class clown wouldn't he.
     
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