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Centering pattern? Pictures...

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by himejim, Mar 3, 2009.

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  1. himejim

    himejim Member

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    I just patterned my new barrel shooting high and left at 13 yards. I tried with a light full choke and a light modified choke and got the same result. Pictures are from light full choke. I have a few questions for the experts here:


    How high is the gun shooting at 40 yards? (measure to center of pattern from bottom of target circle and then multiply by 3)

    How far left is the center of the pattern at 40 yards? (measure from north/south axis to the center of the pattern and then multiply by 3)

    Finally, you can see that I moved my adjustable comb 1/16 inch to the right and basically got the same result, high and left. I tried it fixed on a rest and moving up on the target bullseye and again got the same result. How can I adjust to get the pattern centered on the north/south axis.


    [​IMG]

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  2. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Move it a 1/4" right and see where you are.
     
  3. himejim

    himejim Member

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    Thanks for your comments.

    On the rest the pattern is 4-5 inches high. Is that 12-15 inches high at 39 yards?

    My comb is already right of center on my stock. Moving it away from my face another 1/4 inch will feel very strange on my face, but I can try it. I thought moving it 1/16 as I already have wold have made some difference but it didn't seem to matter.

    This all seems strange to me as my other barrel shot centered if the beads were lined up in a figure "8".
     
  4. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    himejim, I'm confused. First of all, shooting from a rest and shooting offhand are two entirely different things. I know others say differently, but not me. I shoot from a rest when I want to see where the gun shoots. I shoot standing up when I want to see where I shoot the gun.

    The two pictures you show are apples and oranges. Either do all your adjusting from a rest with a final tweak while standing, or all standing. The 1/16" you moved your comb right should have moved your POI to the right by 5/8". Your second picture appears to show it moving the other way. That cannot be, and is due to the different shooting styles. Base on your second picture, move the comb an additional 1/8" to the right and try again. Shoot at least a dozen shots before you say it is right, or x" off.

    BTW, your chokes may be shooting off center. You have to check them out before you can do real POI testing.
     
  5. himejim

    himejim Member

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    zzt, thanks for your comments.

    I have shot numerous times with the two chokes that I own and both seem to yield the same left of center results. (I have really killed a few trees with my paper usage.) Plus, I have shot both chokes on a rest and in-motion moving up on the target on the paper.

    I thought that after moving the comb away from my face (right handed shooter) would move my pattern right when moving the gun up on the target. (Naturally, lining up the beads in a figure 8 is going to yield the same pattern off the rest.) Would shooting at real straight-away targets yield a different result than my pattern on the paper with my moving up motion?

    Thanks again....
     
  6. threedeuces

    threedeuces TS Member

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    This is why I never pattern my new guns "unless" I have #1 shot a few rounds and #2 cant hit anything with it in those few rounds. The reason I don't pattern them when they are brand new is just the above reason. It can make you pull your hair out or it can make you think you have a piece of crap gun that needs the barrel bent.
    My 14 year old son put it clear to me. If you can hit with it the way it is why mess with it. The only kicker to all this is if you cant hit with it.
    Just my two cents and good luck.
     
  7. himejim

    himejim Member

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    Am I reading this right, multipy my 13 yard differences by 3 to get my 39 yard distances (high and left of center)?

    If one barrel is dead center above the bullseye and the other is off to the left should I try a new choke first or shoot it at straight away targets, etc. for some time before I invest?

    Thanks...
     
  8. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    himejim, since this is a new barrel, you might want to check if the rib is centered over the bore? I had to have a rib moved over that shot similar to yours. It doesn't take very much out of alignment to throw off the shot pattern quite a ways. Hap
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    HJ, first I'd like to complement you on your photos and organized way you are going at this. You've brought up a very interesting point which deserves some discussion.

    There's no doubt in anyone's mind that when you look straight down this gun and shoot it off a benchrest, it shoots left. Not a lot, perhaps, but left rather than straight or right.

    Now you are being told to look crooked down the gun to make it shoot straight. And that you are more likely to resist the comb and look right down the gun when it's shooting off a rest. I can't see why this would be. Or how you would know. The only solid evidence you have, after all, is these patterns and they all say the same thing. What happens as you move the gun is at best a guess. Add to that the fact that when you did move the comb the POI didn't change and you will see why I have no faith is the offset-comb theory.

    It is also asserted that shooting a gun free-hand and off a rest is a completely different thing. I know of no evidence for this and it seems to me that rifle shooters, who use a rest when they sight in and need a good deal more accuracy than we,would be completely at sea in the field if this were true and would all sight in free-hand but I don't see them doing it at all.

    In my opinion, you have to fix where it shoots, not apply a doubtful theory and hope for the best. A new choke tube may do it; bending it will do it as well.

    Neil
     
  10. himejim

    himejim Member

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    Thanks all for your thoughts. This web site is awesome because of all the unselfish and experinced folks like you.

    The barrel is on a Kolar and I am lucky enough to be very close to the factory so I will test their great service once again.

    Thanks again...
     
  11. ysr_racer

    ysr_racer Active Member

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    >>I shoot from a rest when I want to see where the gun shoots. I shoot standing up when I want to see where I shoot the gun.

    Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner.

    First you have to see where the GUN shoots. Then you have to see where YOU shoot the gun.

    Two very different things.
     
  12. ysr_racer

    ysr_racer Active Member

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    >>I move the comb left or right so that I CAN look straight down the barrel. rmy

    Ding, ding, ding, we have another winner.

    I agree.
     
  13. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    The next time you pattern the gun, take the choke tube after it has been screwed in all the way and back it off 1/2 of a turn (180 degrees). If the POI changes you will know the choke tube is off center. HMB
     
  14. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Another excellent suggestion from hmb.

    himejim, good idea going to Kolar for help. BTW, yes, multiplying by 3 gets you very close to the POI you will actually get at 40 yards.

    For all you doubting Thomases, when you shoot from a bench or a rest you are aiming. You are intentionally trying to line up your eye, BOTH beads and the POA. This has nothing to do with shooting in a sport where you do not aim.

    When I stand and shoot for POI, I certainly can aim. If I line up my eye, both beads and the POA while standing I get the same POI as I did from the bench left/right and a touch higher up/down (recoil rotation). What a surprise.

    You do not shoot like this on the line. There you are always concentrating on the bird. Your eye, the front bead only and the target form your sight picture. That's how you should shoot for POI while standing. I move the gun while tracking a vertical line with my bead and fire whenever. It doesn't matter, because I am only interested in right/left here. I do the same with a horizontal line when determining up/down POI.

    AFTER I have adjusted my comb left or right so the POI straddles the vertical line, I AM looking straight down the rib where it counts- on the line shooting. I don't have to adjust my position on the stock to make the two beds line up.

    You shoot from a bench to determine if you have a hardware problem. You shoot while standing to correct a mounting problem. They are two entirely different things. Shooting from a bench is the same as making you look where the gun shoots. Shooting while standing is making the gun shoot where you look. You choose which method you want to use.
     
  15. KENENT1

    KENENT1 Active Member

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    moving the comb left and right will not change where the gun shoots while you are aiming by lining the 2 beads up.

    If you want to know where the gun shoots, forget about the center bead and just use the front bead and your eye for the rear sight, then when you move the comb right or left you will change the poi.

    I feel that alot of people get too worried about keeping the 2 beads lined up, forget about this and work on consistent gun mounts and just use the front bead or the end of the barrel.

    when I shoot I am barley aware of the gun.


    tony
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    zzt, your post perfectly illustrates the problems I see with the offset-comb theory.

    The first red flag is the certainty with which these pronouncements are made when they are at best only sometimes true if they are true at all. Let's take this example:

    "For all you doubting Thomases, when you shoot from a bench or a rest you are aiming. You are intentionally trying to line up your eye, BOTH beads and the POA. This has nothing to do with shooting in a sport where you do not aim."

    While I seriously doubt even the idea behind what you say, here's why it doesn't work. If you are looking straight down the gun then you are lining up both beads naturally, so the situation is far more similar than you imply, since you are lining up both beads in the sporting situation as well. Unless, of course, you take some of this advice. The effectiveness of this (offset comb) approach depends on the assertion that you _won't_ try to line things up again when as you go for the bird or make another wrong decision, detailed later. HJ apparently did just that off a rest where he had everything under pretty good control; won't he do the same in the far more fluid and uncontrolled situation on the field? Are people really satisfied with looking down down a gun and seeing the rib not as a straight line, but rather a crooked one?

    I recently had a gun which shot a good deal left, even more than HJ's in fact. I like glowing beads and put one on about as far offset as the rib would allow and in the proper direction and continued to shoot scores with it about the same (and down from my usual standard) as before. I think it's likely the shot was actually at least sometimes better placed, laterally, and my poor shooting was now caused by the fact that every time I put the gun up it seemed like my head was in the wrong place, since I was no longer looking down the gun and I was getting conflicting information, namely that the gun (rib and barrel) told me I was shooting in one direction, the bead another. I had no faith (and in fact the scores confirmed I was right) that there wouldn't be once or twice - or maybe all the time - in a high-pressure 100-bird event act on the information from the prominent rib and barrel instead of the less-salient bead, and this was a bead that glows like a laser. The 1/8 inch white spot most depend on would surely have been a far greater conflict, the rib having a relatively greater visual impact.

    I take it, zzt, that your definition of "aiming" is based entirely on the conscious lining up of the two beads, and not the placement of the bead relative to the bird when making the shot. I mean, I can't take

    "For all you doubting Thomases, when you shoot from a bench or a rest you are aiming. You are intentionally trying to line up your eye, BOTH beads and the POA. This has nothing to do with shooting in a sport where you do not aim."

    to mean anything else. Or am I missing something? Really, the only difference between your standing test and the benchrest test is that you are now ignoring the mid-bead (and rib) , right? You are still depending on the relationship between the bead and the bird to take care of breaking the target, right? I've no problem with that (though many here would, I think), I'm just trying to nail down exactly what you mean.

    So you use that bead-pattern relationship to position the comb

    "AFTER I have adjusted my comb left or right so the POI straddles the vertical line, I AM looking straight down the rib where it counts- on the line shooting. I don't have to adjust my position on the stock to make the two beds line up."

    pretty much anywhere to get the correct lateral POI. And it could be anywhere, right? But now you refer to that as "looking straight down the rib." That certainly is something that may or may not be true. If you have offset the comb and your eye is no longer looking straight down the rib, then you are _not_ "looking straight down the rib" no matter how many times you say it. In some cases you will be looking _across_ the rib and thus bring up the conflicting information problem I referred to earlier.

    The solution to lateral deviation in the shot is to get the gun to shoot straight when your eye, the beads, and the target are all lined up, not make it worse by adjusting the gun to give you two different visual stories and trust yourself not to mix them up in that split second you have to decide which to believe.

    Neil
     
  17. Dednlost

    Dednlost Member

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    I'm no expert and certainly have the highest respect for Neil and zzt but here is my thoughts. I agree that most people misunderstand why you move the comb to correct windage problems, it only works if you are not seing straight down the rib, so you use the comb adjustment to get your eye to looking straight down the rib and in doing so it should shoot straight unless there is some mechanical problem. I have seen guns with the mid bead not posistioned in the center of the rib from the factory, this must be corrected before trying anything else.

    My suggestion in this case is to be very careful to check to see if you are canting the gun. This is very common and if you cant the gun even with the beads aligned with each other it will shoot in the direction of the cant. So check for cant and let us know what you find.
     
  18. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    While I mostly agree with rmy and you, D, I do question whether a canted gun will shoot in the direction of the cant. But I'm kind of lost on this canting question in general so may have that wrong too.

    Neil
     
  19. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    I just don't see how this is hard to understand. Pick up a gun that shoots straight, any gun, and mount it using your normal, comfortable gun mount. What do you see? If you are looking straight down the rib and the beads are aligned left/right, you are good to go.

    Now suppose you are not looking down the rib. The beads are not aligned. What do you do? Well, you have two choices. You can adapt your mount and head position so you are looking down the rib, or you can adjust the stock so that you are.

    For example; if I pick up your gun and mount it, it is almost certain the center bead will be right of the front bead. Assuming there is no problem with the hardware, that means I am not looking down the rib. So if I am going to shoot your gun just the way it is, I'll have to rotate my head clockwise to bring my right eye over the rib, and I'll have to tilt my head to the right to finish the job. That is adjusting to where the gun shoots. It means I am looking for the target out of the very top left corner of my shooting glasses.

    Now let's adjust your gun to fit me. I'm going to move your comb way over to the right. Chances are it won't go over far enough, but I won't have to rotate my head so far to the right. I'll still have the tilting the head problem, but I'd need an adjustable butt plate to fix that.

    So for all of you who's natural gun mount magically coincides with your bench rest mount, use Neil's approach. You'll be close.

    For those of you where this is not the case, do this. Mount the gun, standing just as you do on the line. Use your "normal" gun mount. Pay attention only to the front bead and the vertical line you are tracking. Fire when the bead is superimposed on the line. Where did the shots go? If they bisect the line, you are centered right to left. If you mount the gun again, and check, you will be looking right down the rib. If your POI was left of the line, move your comb to the right about 1/16" for every 5/8" you want the POI to move at 13 yards. When you have enough adjustment, your POI will straddle the line. Now mount the gun again and pay attention to the rib and the bead alignment. Are you looking right down the rib? Are the beads aligned left/right? Yes, they are. You have just made the gun shoot where you look.

    I can tell you from bitter experience it is sheer folly to adjust yourself to a gun that does not fit. You REALLY want your eyes level, and you REALLY want to be looking out the optical centers of your shooting glasses. If that does not happen, you are handicapping yourself.
     
  20. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    zzt, while I think I have a better idea what you are getting at than I did before, I still cannot fathom the latter part of your post.

    In the first part you are telling people to move the comb so they are as well centered down the gun as their willingness to change hardware will allow. So far, so good.

    But then you drift over to the people who's natural gun mount is not the same as their benchrest mount. Of course, I always emphasize that they should make sure that what they see on the rest is just like they see when the mount the gun freehand since if they don't none of the results will make any sense, but those are the people you are talking to, I guess.

    But then you write this, which remains a mystery to me in so many ways.

    "For those of you where this is not the case, do this. Mount the gun, standing just as you do on the line. Use your "normal" gun mount. Pay attention only to the front bead and the vertical line you are tracking. Fire when the bead is superimposed on the line. Where did the shots go? If they bisect the line, you are centered right to left. If you mount the gun again, and check, you will be looking right down the rib. If your POI was left of the line, move your comb to the right about 1/16" for every 5/8" you want the POI to move at 13 yards. When you have enough adjustment, your POI will straddle the line. Now mount the gun again and pay attention to the rib and the bead alignment. Are you looking right down the rib? Are the beads aligned left/right? Yes, they are. You have just made the gun shoot where you look."

    OK, you've got these guys moving the comb to center the POI on the line. And then you assure them

    "Now mount the gun again and pay attention to the rib and the bead alignment. Are you looking right down the rib? Are the beads aligned left/right? Yes, they are." Now if this was all they were trying to do, look down the gun and align the beads, why did they have to shoot at all? Didn't they see they weren't aligned before? And wasn't that what they were doing in the first part of the post.

    I think you've missed the point of of HJ's photos and text. When he pays attention to the rib and bead alignment, looks right down the rib, and yes, the beads align, then his gun _does not_ put the shot where you, I, or he wants; it puts it _left_ of that vertical line. That's what this whole thread is about, the cases when things are lined up and the shot doesn't go straight. If it did go straight, he wouldn't have started this thread.

    He wonders what to do. I say that moving the comb to the side is an inadequate band-aid; he has to fix the gun.

    Neil
     
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