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Category/Class Shooters

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by thebirdislost, Jul 14, 2009.

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  1. thebirdislost

    thebirdislost TS Member

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    Wouldn't it be a better/more fair system if a shooter had to make class/category declaration prior to shooting?

    It doesn't seem fair that some shooters are able to choose up to 3 different (Junior, Lady, Class) trophies depending on which class/category that they shot a high enough score to win. While I do totally agree that any shooter should be able to win/shoot-off for the champion and places, is it fair that the majority of shooters can only win a class trophy after that, while others can pick and choose what is most convenient (for lack of a better term) based on how they did that day?

    For instance, two lady shooters break 100s in singles. Instead of shooting off, one takes class B, so that both of them can get trophies. The gentleman that just broke his 1st 99 in B class has to sit around and wait to see which way the lady is going to declare. Since the two lady shooters are friends, why would they not arrange for one to take lady and the other to take class?

    Before you bash me, I should tell you that I myself am a lady shooter. I would have no problems declaring whether I want to shoot for class or lady trophies during classification. I, like most women, shoot with mainly men. I have seen first hand how frustrating it can be for them to wait around to see how category shooters are going to declare to see if they should stick around for shoot-offs.

    Also, can you imagine how easy this would make managing the shoot-offs?

    Just my thoughts, but it seems like it would make everything more fair and easy to make all declarations prior to shooting.

    Thoughts?

    Robyn
     
  2. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    I agree to a point . As shooters get older the same thing happens with vet and senior vet . alot of shooters are getting two chances ot win something .
     
  3. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    Robyn, I think you have a few mis-understandings on what really happens. Category ie. Lady, Junior, Vet etc. must be declared at the time of Classification and Not after the Event has been shot. When ATA Trophies are awarded like at the State or Zone Shoot, a definite protocol is written down for shoot-offs and it is suggested but not mandatory that a similar protocol be published in the Shoot Program for other shoots. The purpose of Category trophies is to encourage shooters to participate in the Event with their peers. I shoot in the Category Veteran and also Class A and at most of the larger shoots the Veteran Trophy is hard to come by. I firmly believe that Only One trophy should be awarded to a shooter per Event.
     
  4. thebirdislost

    thebirdislost TS Member

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    Mike, I understand that I have to declare category at time of classification. However after I am done shooting, if I am high in both Ladies and Class, I then get to choose which one I want to shoot-off for and/or win. Rules suggest that Category over Class, however, it is not a rule, and I do get to choose.
     
  5. trapshootin hippie

    trapshootin hippie Well-Known Member

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    Robyn, if it bothers you to have to make a decision, just sign up for class, you don't have to declare ladies. Problem solved, correct?
     
  6. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    OK, some Shoot Programs are ambiguous but I like the ones that say for example: You can shoot/off for Class but if you lose the shoot/off then you can't Fall Back to Category.
     
  7. BNicely

    BNicely TS Member

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    As the father of a male junior shooter I am a proponent of making shooters declare for one category before shooting. In our case letting a shooter decide after the event is over if they want to take lady or junior category is unfair to everyone.

    Case in point, we were at the Wyoming state handicap championship last week and my son was the high junior except for someone in the LDJR class. We had to wait until the very end of the shoot for her to declare. At which point she took the junior trophy so her friend and squadmate could take the lady's trophy. I don't mind giving shooters two category choices but letting them decide after they have shot their targets is like betting on the horse after the race is over. Hopefully the ATA will review this policy this year. Thanks for bringing up the topic.

    Brian
     
  8. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    I agree......it would be better/more fair if the shooter had to declare class/category before shooting.

    John C. Saubak
     
  9. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    2. A contestant whose score qualifies them for more than one (1) ATA
    trophy must notify shoot management as to which trophy he/she desires
    to accept or shoot for. The shooter must make his/her declaration as
    specified by shoot management after the last scores for that day’s
    event(s) are posted and before entering into any shoot-off/carry-over.
    The maximum time allowed for such declaration shall be made by
    shoot management, within a range of 15 to 45 minutes, and published
    in the shoot program. If not published in the program, the time shall
    be 15 minutes. This declaration should be made at a place specified
    by shoot management.
    3. Any category shooter who is tied for event champion may shoot-off/
    carry-over for champion only.Shooters failing in the champion shootoff/
    carry-over may elect only one of the options listed in Paragraph
    37
    D., 5. (a) or (b).
    4. Any category shooter who is high or tied for place, class or yardage
    group and also high or tied for his/her category, may elect only one of
    the options listed in Paragraph D., 5. , (a) or (b).
    5. Options available to category shooters:
    (a) Take out right or shoot-off/carry-over for his/her category
    forfeiting any place, class or yardage group trophy.
    (b)Take outright or shoot-off/carry-over for place, class or yardage
    group trophy forfeiting any category trophy.
    If the shooter fails to make a declaration within the specified time, shoot
    management shall declare for the shooter and place the shooter as
    mandated by Paragraph D., 5., (a).
    If a shooter is placed in more than one category, shoot management
    shall place and declare if required:
    (a) Sub-junior or Junior over Lady
    (b)Lady over Veteran or Senior Veteran
    (c)Chair over all categories
    Once any declarations have been made either by a shooter or shoot
    management, the declaration is final and cannot be changed. There
    shall be no exception to this rule.


    What was the question again??
     
  10. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    The question was........why should a lady, or a junior or sj, or a veteran or sv.......get to decide which trophy he/she wants AFTER the scores are in? And.....in so doing, also decide who gets the OTHER trophy?

    John C. Saubak
     
  11. wdr-NY

    wdr-NY TS Member

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    Pipe Dream... the ATA isn't going to change this rule because you're messing with all american points here.

    The reality is that if the ATA were to make category shooters declare prior to shooting, they WOULDN'T be shooting for class or championship... ever.

    ...all of your top Juniors, Ladies and Vets/Sr. Vets (including Kay Ohye and Debbie Ohye) would just declare category because its their best chance to get their points.

    I understand and agree with the reasoning to a point, but its not something we're likely to see changed.

    Walker
     
  12. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    If the Category Shooter is the clear winner of the Trophy without a Shoot/Off, I don't see a problem with that shooter making a choice if the protocol is Not spelled out in the program. If the shooter loses a shoot/off for Class or Yardage Group they should Not be allowed to Fall Back to Category.
     
  13. colobiggun

    colobiggun Active Member

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    I can fully see different sides on this arguement, but the fact remains that if two category shooters break 100 in B Class, and some man has just shot his best score of 99, he was still beaten (twice) in his class. Is it right he should receive a "Winner" or "Champion" trophy when he actually took third place? If a male Junior shooter is beaten by a female Junior shooter, is it right that he receives the "Winner" trophy (and corresponding AA points) when he actually was not the high Junior shooter, but because she declared Lady, he receives it? There are many times a male Junior shooter gets trophies and All American points when he was not the best Junior shooter there nor have the best scores. It all works out. There are times that category shooters will pursuade other shooters in their same category to take class because that other shooter is not interested in All American points, and they are. Is that fair? Some category shooters want a trophy that says they beat the men, not just the people in their category, so they take class. Sometimes there is added money in class and not category. There are a multitude of reasons why people declare what they do, but in the end, we are trying to encourage new shooters and special category shooters to enjoy this sport, and winning a trophy helps. If you get out shot by anybody, whether it is a man, a woman, a kid, a senior citizen, etc., just accept that you didn't hit as many as they did on that day and they deserve to be able to pick what they want (to the victor goes the spoils). Don't try to limit them to reward someone that didn't actually win. The contest is between you and the target, and in the end, we compare how we did in that contest against others competing in the same way. Just my opinion.
     
  14. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    MikeTMX -

    When shooting for ATA trophies you can't fallback from class to category (or category to class). You can only fallback to one or the other if you lose a shoot-off for event champion. If you are eligible for a trophy in both class and category, you have to pick one.

    Although most local shoots don't involve ATA trophies, I think most clubs follow the same rule.

    Scott
     
  15. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    Robyn:

    Against my better judgement, I find myself once again participating in a discussion concerning "fair". Here goes...

    We currently have categories covering kids, chicks, and seniors. As you point out, that allows the kids, chicks, and seniors an extra trophy opportunity which they can exercise (or not) after the event. The only shooters NOT provided that extra category opportunity are tweener fat men like me.

    If the ATA were to create a "Fat Man" category, then EVERYBODY would have the same chance to compete or declare for champ, class, and/or category, thereby providing EVERYONE an opportunity to game the system on a more or less equal basis.



    Problem solved?

    sissy : )
     
  16. kie95

    kie95 Member

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    Regardless of their category if they beat you, they beat you. If you want to win, shoot the score to win. There will be another time when someone will take category and the second or third high score will take class.
     
  17. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Robyn made a reasonable point in her first point, but I would like to expand her logic a little. Is it fair to have category shooters? A typical trophy package is 11 trophies. Five of these (nearly 50%) are reserved for only category shooters and they represent less than 10% of the shooters.

    If you believe that having category shooters is unfair, then logically, you would also have to accept dividing shooters into other classes (AA,A, B,C,D) is not fair. What about the class D shooter who does not win a trophy with a 96 and the class C trophy is won with a score of 95?

    Is it fair that I will shoot factory AA shells at the Zone tomorrow while others shoot discount shells and others cannot get off work to even attend? Is it fair when two people go duck hunting and one of them shoots 4 ducks and the other only shoots one duck. Is it fair to the ducks when 10 fly over the blind, two are killed and 8 fly away?

    Is life fair?

    Pat Ireland
     
  18. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    Just another rip and tear of the ATA and the current system. Why can't you just shoot and enjoy the game in it's present state??

    Don
     
  19. Carol Lister

    Carol Lister TS Member

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    <blockquote>"Is it fair that I will shoot factory AA shells at the Zone tomorrow while others shoot discount shells and others cannot get off work to even attend? Is it fair when two people go duck hunting and one of them shoots 4 ducks and the other only shoots one duck. Is it fair to the ducks when 10 fly over the blind, two are killed and 8 fly away?

    Is life fair?"</blockquote>

    C'mon, Pat...

    There are some things we can control and some things we can't; ducks we can't, rules and procedures we can. The reality is that the ATA is too fond of its traditions to want to change its procedures.

    Carol Lister
     
  20. 635 G

    635 G Well-Known Member

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    Tradition is good, just ask any Hassidic Jew.

    Phil Berkowitz
     
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