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CANT shoot an Un-Single (Smok'n Joe)

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Smok'n Joe, Dec 20, 2009.

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  1. Smok'n Joe

    Smok'n Joe Active Member

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    CANT shoot an Un-Single (Smok

    Since I referenced an article in Trapshooting USA regarding GUN CANT, there are no less than 6 threads and hundreds of posts. We don't need to open another thread on that subject, but I would like to know why so many of you,
    including Phil Kiner, ZZT, and Neil Winston have said "some people cant shoot an Un-Single". I would like you to elaborate and express your opinions on the advantage and disadvantage of the Un-Signle and what kind of shooter is it best suited for...
     
  2. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    This topic is not new, I have read about it on trapshooters.com for years. This phenomena keeps me from spending big bucks to buy an un-single because I probably am one of those guys who is better off with a top single.
     
  3. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    MikeTMX. I'm with you.

    JackMX3
     
  4. Bluerock1

    Bluerock1 Member

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    MikeTMX-- But what if you would shoot the u/s better.
    BR1
     
  5. threedeuces

    threedeuces TS Member

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    I was raised on the unsingles so that is what I have got used to. I have shot a lot of top singles but none of them I felt as comfortable as I do my under barrel. For the most part I think all of us over think the under single thing to death. There are two reasons why I like the higher ribbed guns. I like the more heads up shooting style it gives me and lets face it, they are bad ass looking to say the least. It took me about 800 shells through my newest one to finally say wow. From day one the gun was good for many 24's but I could not run um. As of lately the runs are coming most all the time.
     
  6. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    This is like saying you can't shoot the bottom barrel on an o/u.
     
  7. Smok'n Joe

    Smok'n Joe Active Member

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    Jerry,

    That's an excellent reference! Come to think of it, I shoot the top barrel of my O/U most often, but on the rare occassion that I have fired the bottom barrel I haven't scored as well. Top barrel is Full bottom is Mod. From 16 yards the difference in choke should not be much.

    Three Dueces,

    I'm in complete agreement with your post. I love the look and my Un-Single feels better, shoulders better and does just about everything better except for consistently breaking targets. I've said it before on many threads, I'm not trying to qualify for the Olympic team, but my average has gone down with this gun. What really bothers me is what I called MYSTERY MISSES...targets that I felt I was dead on that sail into the lake unscathed!!!

    Peter,

    I've heard that "end of barrel" reference a few times...not sure exactly what that means, but YES most of the trouble comes on the the angles.

    TinMan,

    Thank you for the PM...I appreciate your insight!

    I'm waiting to hear from Phil, ZZT and Neil. AvergEd adressed the choke issue very well in his original gun review which he was kind enough to post on another thread. He was dead on, and I have resolved that issue with after market replacements. I've received some excellent insight on setting the adjustable comb and adjustable rib. I opened the a thread on GUN CANT to explore the benefit of an adjustable recoil pad, which I haven't installed yet.

    Let's limit this thread to "Can't shoot an Un-Single"

    Smok'n Joe
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Joe, I'll turn the clock back about 15 or 20 years. I already had a K-80, one I'd bought from someone who built it up from a K-80 receiver and a Model 32 Krieghoff over-barrel, one with a "Vandalia" rib, which I still consider, in general, the best barrels I've ever owned, once they were bent enough to shoot straight, which was sometimes a lot.

    But I wanted a cutting-edge replacement, so I got a new unsingle K-80, retired the old receiver, and had a three-barrel combo: The O/U, an unsingle, and my old Vandalia oversingle, stuffed away in the Tioga just in case. (Also at this time I took a long excursion into never-never-land with a Fajen adjustable stock, which could be changed in four, or maybe five, or maybe six ways which, when paired with the K-80's adjustable rib, saved the lives of almost all the clay targets at Metro Gun Club for an entire autumn.)

    In those days I used to leave MInnesota in early January and shoot the Arizona Chain shoots, which gave me about six weeks of pre-Spring Grand shooting, essentially every day plus marathons. By this time in my shooting career I'd gotten to be a pretty good shot, so it was a change-for-the-worse when in the six weeks and maybe 5000 singles my averages had dropped a few birds and I'd hit no 100's, which I had been doing at least now and then.

    Looking at my scores all week in Tucson, Bob Munson said "Neil, you used to shoot that other barrel well didn't you? If you have it with you why not put it on and try it? Maybe you are missing with the unsingle because sometimes you are pointing the bead at the bird but occasionally you point with the (larger) end of the barrel and when you do that it shoots in a little different place and that costs you the odd bird in the course of an event."

    I put the oversingle on and went 30 feet forward from my motorhome to the practice trap (that's where I used to park) and broke 200 without much effort and backed it up with 198 or 199 in the Championship singles that day.

    The unsingle barrel and I went on stroll over to see Elmer and it didn't come back with me. (Of course, something else did, but I can't remember what.)

    I'll accept Bob's explanation, which is Phil's and is shared by almost everyone who has thought about it a lot. I've really never given it much time. I had one, couldn't shoot it, and moved on. If I buy a car and don't like the way it drives I replace it and do not dwell instead on the dynamics of the anthropo-vehicular interface. I treat guns the same way. The world is full of trapguns. I'm sure someday I'll find the right one, and in the meantime just looking for it is half the fun.

    Neil
     
  9. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Smoke'n, I don't recall ever saying some people cannot shoot an unsingle. It may well be true, but I cannot prove it. I can't even tell you if I shoot an unsingle better than a top single. When people like Phil Kiner say they cannot, I believe them.

    I've already said I think it sometimes causes an optical illusion. I think unsingle/top single misses the mark. As I've said previously, I think it a question of how high the rib is, not the configuration of the gun. I also think there is a mental aspect of this that cannot be explained.

    I have a friend who owns several Perazzis and loads of barrels. He says he absolutely cannot shoot an unsingle. He learned shooting on the skeet range with a gun with no rib and says he shoots off the barrel. He has the MX-8 barrel he started with (top single, low rib). He has an MX-3 Special barrel (top single, slightly higher rib than MX-8). He has an MX-10 adjustable rib top single, also pretty low rib. He tries all of them.

    So what does he shoot best? His TMX. That's a high rib top single, way higher than his other barrels. So go figure. He will shoot the TMX, mutter in amazement "man I shoot this well", then pull out his MX-2000 and one of his other barrels the next week. In his case, the only conclusion I can come to is mental attitude. He thinks one way, but clearly shoots his highest rib gun better.

    JerryP, it is not the same as saying you cannot shoot the bottom barrel on a O/U. If it didn't have a top barrel it would be an unsingle and you would have a better view of the world. Since it is an O/U you have the equivalent of a top single barrel in the qway blocking some of your view. You'll also see the barrel more clearly. If you do indeed shoot of the end of the barrel, it will make a difference.
     
  10. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Joe, why don't you tell us what your mystery misses are. Do they occur mostly on straight aways, or only on angles? A mix?
     
  11. Smok'n Joe

    Smok'n Joe Active Member

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    Gentlemen,

    You've made my day...and saved me a lot of money and anguish! I can't begin to thank all of you enough for sharing your experience and insight on these topics that I have brought to the table...again, THANK YOU ALL!

    As many of you know by now, I've returned to trapshooting after a 20 year layoff. Getting re-acclimated has been an ordeal, but I've enjoyed every minute of it and I am especially grateful for the priviledge of sharing and discussing experiences with genuine people of your calibre. This is truely a wonderful forum and a terrific source of information for anyone engaged in our chosen endeavor and it is gratifying to learn how much we have in common.

    I wish you all a very Merry Christmas and a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year. Perhaps someday we might be able to meet face to face...now wouldn't that be GRAND!!!

    Smok'n Joe
     
  12. cottondoctor

    cottondoctor Member

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    This is why they make un-singles, top-singles, just single barrel guns and over/unders ---- or side by sides for that matter ---- like why they make Ford trucks and Dodge trucks..........different people like different "stuff"- For me - I tried BT-99's, BT-100's, Rem 1100's, Rem 870's, Browning XT o/u, Kolar top singles and Perazzi un-single.......I shot each type for several thousand targets. I shot better scores with the un-single and/or the bottom barrel of the o/u. So I am going with the un-single and move my thoughts on to other things. Try different guns and different barrel types and pick what you like. I suspect that the "top shooters" (you pick your favorite name) could out shoot 98% of us with a Stevens single barrel right out of the cosmoline. And I like single malt better than blended and like Woodford Reserve better than Crown..........different "stuff" for different folks........
     
  13. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    The jury's still out on unsingles and Ed and the story is not a short one.

    Back in 1989, I was restarting my trapshooting career after 16 years of not looking at a clay target following a six-month stint littered with horrible scores and a sore jaw, courtesy of my 3200 Competition Trap. Many of the guys with whom I shot this time owned Krieghoffs so I naturally became interested in them. They praised them for shooting comfort and I eventually bought a used Scroll Arabesque grade KS-5.

    They were right - the gun was comfortable to shoot and I did shoot it better, especially in 100-target events as, I guess, I was less tired than with my 870 or 1100. So in December of 1990, I took a huge plunge and bought a new K-80 unsingle combo. Fortunately, I kept the KS-5.

    The K-80 arrived on a Friday afternoon and Saturday morning, I took it to a local club. After just adjusting the comb so things "looked right" over the unsingle's rib (of course I started with the "cooler" adjustable barrel, which I now know is the wrong way to do it), I proceeded to break a 98. I was in heaven and believed that all you had to do to shoot well was drop $9,932 on a gun! The sole negative was a very slightly sore jaw, but the stock was too long for me and I knew that correcting that would take care of the jaw problem. And it did.

    That 98 was no fluke. The next day, my buddies and I went to two club shoots (the ones I referenced in the thread on saving trapshooting) and I broke a 50 and a 47. Wow, trapshooting had just become easy!

    But I soon learned how wrong that assumption was. I could shoot that thing well (for me) one day and the next day could be filled with mystery misses and frustration. I blamed the trap settings, backgrounds and myself and for 18 months, never knew which Ed was going to show up. I did discover that I very seldom had one of those frustrating days with the KS-5, as I would shoot it once in a while for giggles. That was clue #1 that I didn't pick up upon nearly soon enough. I also never tried shooting the O/U barrel for singles; it just wasn't "cool" enough and because I had started with the unsingle and had adjusted the rib, I would have to adjust the comb every time I put the O/U barrel on the receiver. Always start with the non-adjustable barrel. But I digress...

    In the spring of 1992, I went to Thurmont, Maryland for their annual 200-target "Strawberry Shoot" and took both guns along. My plan was to shoot the KS-5 in the first 100 and if I broke a 97 or better, stay with it as two scores like that could win something in Class "D", where I was a seemingly permanent resident. If I did less than 97, I'd shoot the K-80 on the second 100 to see if there was a difference.

    I had a 94 with the KS-5, so I did change guns for the back half. On the same targets from the same traps on the same day under the same partly sunny/partly cloudy weather conditions, I put up a blazing 76 with the K-80. That was the last I shot that gun or any other unsingle, except for a gun test here and there, until August of 2008.

    In 1995, I had Hal DuPont put together two Model 32 combos using new receivers and forend irons, new Vandalia-ribbed 34" top singles and 32" O/Us and K-80 wood for my son, Jason, and myself. I had K-80 hammers, trigger group and double releases installed in mine. I shot that gun better - higher scores with more consistency - than any gun before or since and with Phil Kiner's help, broke two 200-straights, won Class "AA" at the 2000 PA State Shoot, tied for Class "AA" at the 2001 CT State Shoot (but forfeited as I couldn't stay for the next day's shoot-off) and got to the 27 with that gun. In 2005, I received the proverbial offer I couldn't refuse for the Krieghoff and, since I am a trapshooter and hadn't changed guns in a while, sold it. I had purchased a KX-5 in 2002 and shot that until August of 2008.

    I had purchased a top-single Beretta 687 Silver Pigeon II combo from Joel Etchen for Jason in 2005 and although I didn't shoot it much (it has those funny triggers you pull to make the gun fire), I was really impressed with its general feel, balance, low recoil, good looks, features and price and said that if I ever bought another trap combo for myself, that is what it would be. I did just that in August of 2008 and since every gun I own will be Jason's one day, I bought an unsingle combo simply so he will have one of each. With my vision woes, shooting winning scores is no longer a priority.

    So far, I have to say I'm not doing horribly with it. I don't shoot nearly as much as I did in the past, but I have numerous 50s, one 100-straight and a bunch of scores between 96 and 99. Handicap, the little I shoot of it, is no worse than with the KX-5. Am I now experienced enough to be able to handle an unsingle? Is there something about the Beretta's unsingle rib that works better for me? I don't know. The jury hasn't returned a verdict yet.

    I do have a theory on unsingles and roller-coaster scores that ties in to what others have already mentioned. I think that under poorer light conditions, the larger barrel muzzle is easier for our brain to see and it uses it instead of the bead as an "aiming" reference. When that happens with the bead and muzzle as far apart as they are on an unsingle, shooting over targets is a much more real possibility than with a top single or O/U, regardless of which barrel is being shot.

    I've done some admittedly unscientific testing of that theory by watching less experienced unsingle shooters on cloudy days. I can say with certainty that they miss more targets and shake their heads more over those misses when a cloud passes overhead and at those times, I hear "...looked good but didn't break..." quite often. I recently observed a very good shooter who has owned an unsingle for about eight months run 22 targets under bright skies and then drop the last three on that trap when the sun went behind a cloud.

    Sorry for the long tale, but Joe asked for details.

    Ed
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    No, Ed and I did not collude on our stories, though I must say the dual references to Vandalia-ribbed top-singles looks suspicious. We just walked exactly the same paths; that's all.

    Neil
     
  15. jimrich60

    jimrich60 Member

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    As Averaged says, I think the jury is still out on unsingles and those who "can't shoot them". But, based upon my unscientific experiences, I tend to agree with Ed that the main problem probably lies in some shooters eye/brain coordination which, for some, possibly tends to use the barrel as a reference point (subconciously) rather than the rib/bead. If this is so, then when the barrel is not in, or very close to that subconcious "sight picture" the brain is looking for, then the ability of that shooter to accurately judge distance and angles may be somewhat degraded and result in a miss. I would note, in light of some the comments of others regarding over/under use of the lower barrel and so forth, this "missing barrel reference point" would not occur in an o/u whether upper or lower barrel was being used, as long as the rib/barrel relationship was "normal". On the other hand, even a top single might then be a problem for some shooters if a very high rib was used, since in this case, once again the barrel reference point that is subconciously being used would not be in proximity to the rib/bead.

    Like averaged, I now use a JEG unsingle combo which, for me, is just more comfortable, and my scores improved appreciably when I switched from a top single configuration. On the other hand, a friend has quite a bit of difficulty shooting my unsingle. Additionally, since he thought a high rib on his top single might give him a more comfortable heads up position, he tried that and again, his scores went down. He simply had trouble shooting any gun where the rib was significantly higher than the average top single rib.
    Just my very unscientific range experiences, but does seem to hold some validity, at least for some shooters.

    Jim R
     
  16. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    I'm like Bill (likes-to-shoot),

    One eyed shooter (taped lens on the off eye), does't matter if I'm shootong my un-single, O/U or top barreled gun.....when I have the gun mounted I only see the top of the rib, can't see ANY part of the barrel.

    These fellows that claim they occasionally miss 'cause they inadvertantly were drawn to the bigger "end of the barrel" and "shot off the end of the barrel"----seems to me must be seeing the barrel/s with their off eye? Maybe it's a cross-firing issue? It certainly must be an issue that plagues only two eyed shooters??

    John C. Saubak
     
  17. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    John, I'm a taped-eye shooter like you and my right untaped eye can see the blob of the muzzle under the rib if I look for it. When a target is in the air and we consciously look at it, our brain is subconsciously aligning it and the front bead - some sight aligning has to happen if the shot is to hit the target, after all. If the muzzle is easier to see, I think it uses that instead.

    I pay attention to my breaks and adjust my gun hold point in accordance with what I see out there. I've often noticed my gun seemingly shooting higher on overcast days. Look for that yourselves and see if it happens to you, too.

    Ed
     
  18. threedeuces

    threedeuces TS Member

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    If any of you decide to "bail out" on your unsingles I would be happy to take one off your hands at a substantially reduced price.
     
  19. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    This topic is certainly not new. In 1984 I wanted to buy a new TMX but I phoned around and was told that even though Dan Bonillas endorsed the high rib DB81 named after him, he could not shoot it well because he thought he was "shooting off the end of the barrel in bad light". I mentioned on the other thread that I can readily see right through the high rib as though it is in the wrong place. Many shooters in the early 80's sold their TMX for just this reason. The conventional rib on the MX3 single barrel is more "Intuitive".
     
  20. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    I shot Model 12's for many years with an occasional 1100 tossed in for good measure ... Then I shot a MX-8 Combo way back when and it was a top single also ... Then a TM-1 thats shoots, swings, and points pretty much like a Model 12 but was the thing to do ... I bought a MX-2000 combo that I really liked but I was never sure where the unsingle barrel was shooting even after I spent a lot of time and effort at the pattern board to get it set just right ... I never got consistant with the thing and tried until I was blue in the face to try and make it work for me ... I wish I would of bought a top single and kept it because I got along real well with the Over/under barrels, but I didn't ... I still have my Model 12's, the TM-1, and have since bought a TMX which I like but have not taken the time to see for sure where its shooting, but that will happen pretty soon ... The last time I took my Model 12 to the club I ran 50 targets like I knew what I was doing (25/25 singles and 27 yard caps)... I'm still sorting but will have to make up my mind real soon on what I am going to shoot, not shoot, sell and keep ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
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