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Can you be in multiple categories?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by starshot2b, Aug 8, 2007.

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  1. starshot2b

    starshot2b TS Member

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    I was just reviewing the list of winners for the prelim's at the Grand. It occurred to me that all you ever see are men as veteran and senior veteran shooters. Since I'm a lady shooter, can I be a veteran shooter in addition to declaring myself a lady shooter, or is it one or the other. I'm just curious, no where close to being a veteran or senior veteran.
     
  2. shotgunfun

    shotgunfun TS Member

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    yes, just as you are in ladies, you are in class whatever.......you can be a lady veteran and win veterans or senior vet........as young ladies can win sub junior, ladies or class........the declarations must be made at the time of shootoffs....and if you choose to shoot for ladies for instance, you can't fall back to sub junior or if you choose to shoot for veterans you can't fall back to ladies......hope that makes sense but at least at the current time if you shoot for champion or runner up you can fall back to your category.

    Lorna
     
  3. starshot2b

    starshot2b TS Member

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    Thanks Lorna, I thought so. Sure seems like it could get confusing though!
     
  4. shotgunfun

    shotgunfun TS Member

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    lol.......sometimes it does. they really have to know the rules at the shoot off window! :eek:)

    Lorna
     
  5. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    It can get very confusing. Try working this out. There are three ladies at the shoot. Two of the ladies are in special categories (Junior and Vet). All are in class A. The one lady who is not in a special category is tied (100X100) for the championship with a Male Vet. The junior lady is tied with the lady Vet (99 X 100) and is high for the junior class. Now, figure out the shoot offs.

    This type of thing is not at all uncommon at larger shoots.

    Pat Ireland
     
  6. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Pat, I will assume they declared, so this is how I see it.

    The lady with 100 shoots off for champion. If she loses she is runner up. She still gets High Lady.

    The 2 99's shoot for A 1st & 2nd (you didn't say if there were other 99's) and each get their concurrent.

    I'm sure there is more, I didn't check the rule book.

    HM
     
  7. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    You can't do much until the lady and the male vet settle the Championship. Then you will know if the Lady or Vet trophies are still available. Then work it out from there depending on what trophies are still available. Depending on how the Champ shootoff goes, the others have decisions to make on which trophy they will shootoff for.

    It is complicated and Pat is pointing out that running these shootoffs is not as simple as some think it is.
     
  8. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Coes winning champ make you ineligible for a concurrent award?

    Just a dumb question.

    HM
     
  9. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean by concurrent award? Generally, with ATA trophies you cannot win both a category trophy and a place or class trophy or vice-versa if that is what you mean.
     
  10. starshot2b

    starshot2b TS Member

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    Wow, it sure can get convoluted, let alone confusing!
     
  11. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    I could not find any rule except page 18, section J defines special categories:

    All Ladies, Juniors, Sub-Juniors, Veterans, and Senior Veterans must
    declare their special category at the time of their entry in any registered
    event. Without such declaration at the shooter will not be allowed to
    compete for the applicable special category trophy. No shooter will be
    allowed to declare a special category after the first shot is fired in the
    event by the contestant. No exceptions to this rule are allowed.

    So I am unclear as to whether you can receive 2 awards for the same score or not.

    (I used the term concurrent because these categories are not separate competitions, rather they are shot concurrently with the event.This term is from skeet,sorry)

    But the way I shoot precludes any such happening, LOL.

    HM
     
  12. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    From the rulebook: "Only one ATA trophy shall be awarded to any person in any separate event." The category or class trophies are not separate events, just separate trophies available in the same event.

    With ATA trophies you can't win both a category and a class etc., and to tell you the truth, I've never been to a shoot that did not follow ATA on this. It doesn't make sense otherwise, better to spread the trophies around.

    This differs from a concurrent event such as a team race or a club champion of champions event at a large shoot, which are not shot separately from the main event, but concurrently. You can win two trophies in these situations.
     
  13. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Sounds good to me

    HM
     
  14. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    Section X, D:

    1. Only one (1) ATA trophy shall be awarded to any one (1) person in any separate event. This means a contestant may not win a special category trophy and an ATA event champion (runner up etc) or ATA class trophy. Trophies not provided by ATA to States/Provinces or Zones are exempt from this rule....
    2. A contestant whose score qualifies them for more than one (1) ATA
    trophy must notify shoot management which trophy he/she desires
    to accept or shoot off for. Failure of the contestant to notify shoot
    management within fifteen (15) minutes after the last events scores are
    posted gives shoot management the right and imposes on them the duty
    to make the determination for that shooter. Shoot management shall
    consider special category trophies superior to class trophies.

    Note that the ATA rule does not provide any guidance on which special category trophy to award a shooter who is high in two categories, and does not notify shoot manangement which one she wants.
     
  15. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    One point as I understand it. A category champion can shoot for Champion only
    and if he/she looses fall to category if they so choosed it that way. They will not be eligible for runnerup trophies. Or they can declare to shoot for champion and runnerup at which time they will be ineligable to fall back to category. Rule was put in place last year.

    Personally I believe it is foolish. We never had a problem other than some juniors, sub juniors vets. or other category shooters might take a trophy from one of the top shooters. B.S.

    It seems all the rules imposed in the past few years only tend to punish the average shooter. - Jim
     
  16. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    A few have hinted at the possibilities and 870 explained how to begin working out the shoot offs. Some have completely missed everything. If someone would like to figure out all the possibilities, they need to begin with a full sheet of paper. Most of the paper will be filled when they get to the end.

    Pat Ireland
     
  17. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Jim:

    I don't think that is quite right. A shooter would always be eligible for the runner-up place trophy in the situation you described.

    This is how I think it goes: The old rule was you could shootoff for Championship and/or place trophies, and if you lost out on all of them, you could still fall back to category or class. BUT, if you earned one of the trophies in the Championship/Place Trophy shootoff you HAD to take that trophy. In other words you could only fall back if you lost out on all the trophies in the shootoff.

    The new rule is that if you lose out on the championship trophy, while still qualifying for a place trophy from the shootoff, now you do not have to accept the place trophy and you can fall back.
     
  18. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    Sorry, but you're wrong and Jim is mostly correct on the current rule.

    Section X, D, 3: A special category shooter may shoot off for event champion
    only and fall back to a category trophy but must declare the intent to do so prior to the shoot off. A special category shooter who enters a shoot off for any runner up or any place trophy must complete the shoot off and accept the result and may not “fall back” to a category or class trophy(ies) unless he/she lost the shoot off for Runner Up or Place. Example: A junior shooter is tied
    with two (2) other shooters for 3rd, 4th and 5th place. If that junior enters
    the shoot off he/she cannot fall back to any category trophy as he/she
    is guaranteed a trophy when he/she enters the shoot off. A junior
    shooter tied for event champion and place with proper notification may
    shoot off for event champion lose the shoot off and then fall back to a
    category trophy....
     
  19. starshot2b

    starshot2b TS Member

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    When and why were special categories created anyway? Has any 'lady' shooter taken a veteran award? I'm not a big fan of the special categories, but I am curious.

    This has turned into one interesting topic and I'm still not sure of the answer to Mr. Ireland's query!
     
  20. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Tom, I guess I didn't stay at the Holiday Inn Express last night!

    My second sentence is wrong, the rest is basically correct except that you are really declaring ahead of time that you are going to fall back to category if you lose the championship shootoff; as opposed to refusing the place trophy as I said.

    My point is that you can fallback in situations where Jim says you are ineligible. "Or they can declare to shoot for champion and runnerup at which time they will be ineligable to fall back to category," I don't agree with this. If you shootoff for runner-up or place, you are still eligible for a category trophy, but only if you lose out in the shootoff.

    I knew they made it easier to fall back, but messed up the details.
     
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