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Camera Enforced Traffic signals

Discussion in 'Off Topic Threads' started by Bruce Specht, Apr 25, 2011.

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  1. Bruce Specht

    Bruce Specht Well-Known Member

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    It's opinon time and if there are any law enforcment officals on the site I could use advise. About three weeks ago I received a letter explaining that my vehicle didn't make a complete stop at a traffic signal(Photo Enforced). In Illinois it is legal to make a right hand turn on red after a complete stop. I was directed to pay $100.00 mailed to an address in the city of Chicago, the alleged violation happened in a suburb about 25 miles west of the city. In the letter your directed to visit a web site to view the alleged violation, sure enough I viewed the video that shows my car approach the corner with the brake lights illuminated, the closer to the corner the vehicle gets the brighter the brake lights become indicating the the driver was depressing the brake pedal even harder in other words stopping the vehicle long enough to make sure that it was safe to turn and that there was no on comming traffic. I worte a letter and sent it to the collecion agency stating that the car in fact stopped, all be it only long enough to check for traffic in order to make a safe and legal right on red. I received a letter back stating that my explanation was insufficent and that the fine was to be paid. I'm preparing another response that will state that in Illinois if I pay this fine I'm admiting guilt to a moving violation, and that is one of three that a perosn can get in one year before loosing driving privilges as well as the affect it can have on insurance premiums.
    My contnetion is that in order to cite me they need proof of whom was driving and they don't have that,as the video is of the rear of the vehicle. and secondly I have the right to a trial if I'm to be convicted of a moving violation? Thirdly the vehicle clearly stopped long enoguh to check for traffic.
    Thoguhts
     
  2. Catpower

    Catpower Molon Labe TS Supporters

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    Sounds like they are doing what all the other places that use cameras are doing, it's not for safety, it's for revenue income, I'd fight it
     
  3. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Bruce -

    I'm in Illinois too (western burbs of Chicago) and here's what I know.

    1. No way to beat this :-(
    2. Doesn't count as a moving violation and is not reported to insurance
    3. No way to beat this :-(

    Did I mention there is no way to beat this!

    Scott
     
  4. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    We are trying to stop this in the legislature. This is a scam on the part of the municipalities. Suggest that you do as I have and visit your state house member and complain. Also get a new radar detector that has GPS coordinates of these sam devices so you can be pre warned.

    TB
     
  5. FIB

    FIB Member

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    I went through this earlier this year. I was driving through Franklin Park (I believe) and got snagged by one of these cameras. They are nothing more than a revenue generator! I was pi**ed off for two days. The video showed me slowing down to a very slow rolling stop (no I didn't come to a complete stop but the light had only been red for 0.6 seconds) and then proceed. I called to dispute it but they were real pri***. I had heard that these lights on general make $ 125,000.00 a year in additional revenue. I feel your pain brother!
     
  6. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Bruce -

    Just to clarify (before I get flamed) about my comment about no way to beat it . . .

    It's a 1-in-1000 shot or thereabout. Lots of people try, but virtually no one is able to do it. Figure the cost of being off work or whatever your time is worth. As someone above mentioned, you are better off knowing where they are so you can avoid them or be extra careful. It's a revenue generator, and since they don't identify the driver and there is no one to testify against you that's why it's not reported to insurance or otherwise count against your record. At least that's the way it works in our city.

    Scott
     
  7. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't aware that brake lights become brighter as more pressure is applied to the pedal .... would't use that as some kind of defense. What you need is a photo(s) showing the wheels being stationary. Otherwise - they got you.
     
  8. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    Should not be legal. Spread the Wealth
     
  9. ddrsuz

    ddrsuz Member

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    I tried to post a .pdf of a Grand Jury Report in Napa that is getting a bunch of press that you might find interesting. It shows that the right turners at some intersection are the primary ones getting these tickets and that the company that sells this service requires the right turns be monitored in order to guarantee that the local agency will be cost neutral in installng the cameras.

    Since I could not get the .pdf to copy onto the site, any one that is interested, just flip me an email and I will send it on. Your primary defense might be the length of the yellow, which is discussed in depth in the Grand Jury Report.

    Since going to trapshoots requires passing thru a bunch of small towns that might be raising revenues in a variety of ways, I have taken to bust my buns to stop on yellow, just to remove the annoyance of trying to fight this stuff.

    d
     
  10. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    I think it is a great idea. I see people constantly breaking the law while driving, if there is not a police car present. People regularily break the traffic laws just because the chances of getting caught are very slim. I am talking about excessive speed, rolling stop signs at 10 mph, etc.. With all of the cuts coming on the state levels, this enforcement is going to decrease allowing more rediculus driving behavior. PEOPLE CAN NOT POLICE THEMSELVES while driving! Here in Wisconsin, traffic enforcment is a joke, or non-existant. If that is a way to increase income, so be it. You at least have a choice. If you do not want to pay, do not break the law. People should be video taped. There is not any better evidence than that. If you stopped, that should be on the video tape. Your ticket has court costs already included in the ticket amount. Go to court and fight it. That is your right. I know you are innocent until proven guilty, but the having to prove you are innocent, and the costs involved are what sucks about our judicial process. I know, I have been through it. I just wish that there was video tape of the violations I was accused of, because the ticket would have never gone to trial court. If you did not break the law, the video will show this. Good luck in fighting the ticket. To be honest with you, everyone should fight a ticket, unless you clearly were breaking the law. Then take the punishment and move on. Just my opinion.
     
  11. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    I'm not wanting to get in a pi$$'n contest on whether or not these should be legal or not. Thats said, exactly how does the law read in conjunction with right turns on red in IL? You may click above and read it yourself if you do not know. I'll help you though.

    Quote from the "Illinois Rules of the Road".

    "drivers must come to a complete stop and yield the right-of-way to oncoming traffic and pedestrians before turning."

    I believe the part where it says "complete stop" is where the vast majority cook their own goose. If you do not come to a complete stop, you broke the law. Now whether or not they should be able to ticket you via camera, is another subject in itself. Just say'n......................

    P.S. As a person whom drives for a living i have found that about any traffic citation can be beat if you want to hire a traffic lawyer. Its really just a question of who you want to give your money too. The City, Town, State or a lawyer. That's all.
     
  12. Stickdp

    Stickdp Member

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    its all about the money-- I read an article on traffic camras were an insurance Co. did a study and found that rear end collisons went up after they were installed at red lights.
     
  13. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    StlFlyn -

    You are not entirely correct regarding court costs being included in the cost of the tickets. It varies.

    In my suburb if you want to go to an admin hearing (it's not a court proceeding) for your red-light camera ticket there is an additional fee (I think it was $50 but they just reduced it to $25). Just over a year ago I got a speeding ticket in another suburb and I had two choices. Pay the $130 fine and get court supervision with no court appearance necessary, or I could go to court and plead not guilty and have my day in court. The paperwork with the ticket very plainly stated that if I went to court and was found guilty I would be hit with an additional $200 of court costs (at a minimum).

    Scott
     
  14. timberfaller

    timberfaller Well-Known Member

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    Find out if your city is installing "new" cameras. A lot of city's are getting rid of theirs because of the increase of "rear" end collision. The City's have found out they are "liable" for the accidents and medical costs.

    Find a good mean lawyer, they like these kind of claims.

    The town I live in just installed some, Used ones from Texas. They were installed around the blocks by the court house and police station. The one block has a lite for a fire station, so guess what happens? When the alarm is sounded, the lite goes red and the intersection with the camera catches people in the intersection because it was green when you were going through it, BUT then got caught in the fire alarm backup!

    If you have a college degree you should never be allowed to work for the public sector!
     
  15. HSLDS

    HSLDS Well-Known Member

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    There is a legal process called 'evidentiary proof' - think 'chain of evidence' in CSI type shows.

    See the above link for an explanation.

    Essentially it means that if you request a court hearing the prosecutor must bring the person who took the photo to court to verify all aspects of it - date, time, car, DMV records, etc.

    Not always easy to do, especially of the monitoring company is in another state.

    The idea is that in court you are allowed to face your accuser and ask questions of them, if they do not show, or do not answer the questions, you get off.

    You need to know your state laws on this - worth talking to and/or hiring a lawyer.

    NOTE - the lawyer will cost more than the ticket, if there are no points, etc. assigned most people just pay the ticket rather than pay a lawyer, miss work for court, etc.

    Get the $$$ picture$$$?
     
  16. Joe Schmo

    Joe Schmo Member

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    These citations are written on a municipal ordinance, not state law. The burden is much less.
     
  17. dave-320c

    dave-320c Well-Known Member

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    Hi:

    In San Juan Capistrano, where I live, a red light ticket is not valid if the courts can not identify the driver of the vehicle.

    You may wish to read the laws pertaining to red light laws in your state; ie, is it the owner of the vehicle that is fined, or is it the driver?

    Good luck with your case.

    Also, in California, Red light tickets must be revenue neutral, and can not be used for revenue enhancements.

    Dave
     
  18. shooterIII

    shooterIII Member

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    In Minnesota:

    Minnesota Supreme Court Strikes Down Red Light Cameras

    The Minnesota Supreme Court delivers a unanimous decision striking down the legality of red light cameras.

    Once in a while they do get things right in MN.
     
  19. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    I got one in Arizona, it was simple pay it or pay to go to driving school and keep it off of your record ... The fine was $258.00, the driving school was $258.00 so I opted for school ... I asked my insurance agent about getting zapped on a camera and they take it seriously also, my insurance would of went up considerably if I paid the fine and had the points deducted from my drivers record ... By my paying to go to the school and keeping it off of my record they just lowered my car insurance by $458.00 per year on the renewal ... You can only go to the school once very two years, anything in between you take the hit on the points and your insurance ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  20. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Bill--Sounds like the Traffic school was actually a plus. Hell you probably even learned something too. I've sat thru a couple. I know i had a couple enlightenments there. (YSC)
     
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