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Calling for bird and not shooting

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by glenns, Jul 3, 2012.

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  1. glenns

    glenns Member

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    Situation: watching the squad shooting before my squad I see a fair number of birds taking a hard right – ‘illegal’ targets (outside of the white stakes in the field). This squad had a number of veteran shooters so they did not shoot at the illegal targets.

    I have been shooting for 3 years and have not experienced seeing so many illegal targets in a registered ATA shoot.

    My squad starts shooting (I am squad leader) and on my 1st bird on post 2 I call for the target and get a right angled bird - a 'legal' bird. I don’t shoot (thinking it might be an illegal bird) and the scorer tells me it is a ‘lost’ bird. A member of my squad tells the scorer that I have 2 ‘failures to fire.’ I shoot and we continue on.

    Being curious I looked at the ATA Official Rules, Section VII, Paragraph C.2. says that if you call for the bird and voluntarily not fire it is a lost bird. Paragraph D.2. says that you get “…2 failures to fire, for any reason, other than stated in Paragraph C. 2…”

    I believe I should have had a ‘lost’ bird when I called for the bird and did not fire. Is that correct or did I miss another rule?

    Should I have requested that management move us to another trap?
     
  2. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    I order to get a second chance (FTF) you have to tell the scorer that you failed to fire because you flinched. Flinches are considered involuntary and qualify you for a second chance. You get two per sub event. HMB
     
  3. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Yes, by rule it was a lost bird, but, carefully read the illegal bird description. It is NOT outside the stakes, but at a specified distance from the house...

    Regardless, it is seldom called..
     
  4. G550

    G550 TS Member

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    I agree with BigM.
    Check section XIII ppg. E. If the stakes are set as suggested that's about 17 degrees at 50 yards. That is the minimum angle. A target is not illegal until it is 10 degrees more (approximately 27 degrees) at 20 to 25 yards from the trap (point B).
    RCH
     
  5. Charlie Becknell

    Charlie Becknell Well-Known Member

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    You are correct, it is a lost target, not a failure to fire. FTF rule would allow for some to use it to get another target, but that is not the intention of the rule. We need to be honest, after all, it is a sport of competing against yourself and others. Honesty is the best policy.

    Charlie
     
  6. School Teacher

    School Teacher Well-Known Member

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    My understanding was that you had to demonstrate to the scorer that you had a malfunction such as a primer that did not detonate. Are we now allowed two flinches per sub event?

    Ed Ward
     
  7. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Yes. HMB
     
  8. JEB

    JEB Active Member

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    I was just at two state shoots in the west. At times the wind kicked up quite a bit. I saw many, many birds being turned down with no penalty. Not kosher, but it happens far too often.
    JEB
     
  9. Joe Potosky

    Joe Potosky Well-Known Member

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    RE: allowed two flinches per sub event

    C. LOST TARGET

    The referee/scorer shall rule, “LOST”:

    2. When a whole target appears promptly after a contestant’s
    recognizable command and is within the legal limits of flight and the
    contestant voluntarily does not fire; or


    D. FAILURE TO FIRE

    The following procedure shall be followed in all tournaments:

    1. A contestant shall be allowed two (2) failures to fire in Singles and
    Handicap events, for any reason other than stated in Paragraph
    C.,2. above, during each sub-event regardless of the length of the
    sub-event. When the first or second allowable Failure to Fire in any
    sub-event occurs, the contestant shall be allowed to call for and fire at
    another target, and the result of the shot will be scored in accordance
    with these Official Rules.
     
  10. glenns

    glenns Member

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    Any comments on asking for a different trap if you see a number of 'illegal' birds (assuming they are illegal)?

    Does shoot management have an obligation to present consistent birds?

    How do you not shoot at an illegal bird? Do you have to be Tiger Woods?
     
  11. Squeal

    Squeal Member

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    Ask for the targets to be reset, then shoot all of them.
     
  12. Jason Hassler

    Jason Hassler Member

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    This is a rule that is broken often. I've seen shooters turn down angle targets before and gotten away with it. Another rule that is very often broken is people asking to see more than one target when they start the round. We are allowed to see one target and one pair in doubles unless it's a shoot off then I believe it's two but not positive but we often see people asking for two three or even four. My belief is we should be honest and take the lost target if you purposely turn down a legal bird instead of lying about flinching. This is a gentlemans sport and we should all conduct ourselves this way. With the trap throwing a lot of rouge targets prior to this incident I would think they would allow some leeway but then again rules are rules.

    As far as moving to another field I guess to me it would depend on how bad it was and what the squad wanted to do. We pay good money for targets and should be getting quality not junk. I've seen a doubles squad stop shooting and tell the staff they weren't gonna shoot them unless they were fixed.

    I've shot at many illegal birds just because it was orange, flying and came out of the house. Only one time have I had the discipline to turn down a target that was an obvious illegal. I wish I was better at making those split second decisions.
     
  13. Martinpicker

    Martinpicker Active Member

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    Last winter I had te honor of shooting at the Dixie Grand. A great shoot at a great location. One round I was squadded with a guy who took his two "fail to fire" in each box we shot. He threw off the entire squad and cost each of us some targets. We had words after the round...to no avail. He was tryin g to work the rules to his advantage. He shot a 72. Martinpicker
     
  14. Kevin Fleming

    Kevin Fleming Active Member

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    Glenns, you were on a trap that had a predisposition to throw wide targets. You suspected the target was wide and turned it down, not because you didn't like the presentation. You ultimately received a FTF as you should have. No lost target. Too many folks get there shorts in a knot when a bird comes out of the house and the shooter passes, regardless of the situation.

    I agree tho with Jerry and Squeal. 2 or 3 wild targets and it's time for mgmt to check the equipment.

    K
     
  15. BAD 303

    BAD 303 Active Member

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    Do any hard angles get shot in trap? I thought is was straight aways only.tic
     
  16. GoDawgs

    GoDawgs Member

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    What do you do if the shooter claims that the bird was broken but the scorer says it was not?
     
  17. Joe Potosky

    Joe Potosky Well-Known Member

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    RE: One round I was squadded with a guy

    Had the same thing happen to me in Florida the past winter. Older person shooting a 1100.

    He had it down to a science. Always hitting the bolt after he failed to shoot. Afterwords, I asked him what was wrong with the gun. He said nothing with the gun, he just didn't shoot at targets he didn't like. I wasn't keeping count but I think on one round he was given more then two failure to fire. He did shoot a 25 in one round...
     
  18. Jason Hassler

    Jason Hassler Member

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    If people want to "bend" the rules and turn down targets that they have a high probability of missing such as a hard angle then they are cheating themselves more than me. If I broke a 100 by avoiding the harder targets then I didn't really accomplish anything did I? The 100 wouldn't be real. Personally I enjoy shooting all the angles and the hard angles are the most fun in my opinion.
     
  19. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    In PITA rules a flinch is specifically listed as a valid FTF. In ATA rules it is not in the list but is usually interpreted as a FTF.
     
  20. glenns

    glenns Member

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    Just to clarify is does the term 'flinch' include not firing? I always thought it meant you pulled the trigger before you really wanted to pull it.

    Kevin - does it matter that you did not like the 'presentation' of the target and did not shoot? The rule does not seem to say that.
     
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