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Caesar Guerini's Updated Response - QSC Report

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by guerini-tom, Sep 25, 2009.

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  1. guerini-tom

    guerini-tom TS Member

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    Caesar Guerini

    See below - Caesar Guerini's updated response to the QSC Report. Please feel free to contact us at info@gueriniusa.com if there are any additional questions.

    RESPONSE:

    Caesar Guerini USA has made numerous attempts to contact Quantico Shooting Club (QSC) concerning the shotgun mishap report and to date we have not received a response from the club or its representatives. If or when Caesar Guerini is contacted and has the ability to examine the firearm in question, we are confident that an independent lab will render an opinion that clears Caesar Guerini of any type of manufacturing defects.


    Independent consulting engineers have reviewed the QSC report and advised Caesar Guerini that they do not support the conclusions reached.


    Though the QSC report looks official, this report fails to document any expertise or qualifications of the writers that would support them rendering an opinion as to the cause of the failure of the shotgun in question (as opposed to perhaps using defective reloads). The report was written by a non–independent panel of safety officers with no apparent expertise in firearm engineering or metallurgy and fails to address key issues in examining and evaluating a damaged shotgun.


    It has been brought to the attention of CG that in an effort to down play the use of reloads in this incident, a new term “spec-load” was created and used exclusively in this report to draw attention away from reloaded ammunition as the probable cause of this incident and potential restrictions being placed on the use of reloads at Quantico.


    Below is a list of FACTS concerning our guns and the QSC report:


    QSC REPORT

    • The report is made to look like an official government document when it is actually an internal investigation by the members of a semi private club that leases property from the U.S. government.


    • Our consulting engineers, both internal and independent who have reviewed the QSC report advised that it does not support the conclusions reached.


    • Even though Caesar Guerini has not had an opportunity to examine the subject shotgun it is clear from the photographic evidence that the damage caused to the firearm was most likely an extreme pressure reloaded round. This type of extreme damage is not indicative of a standard pressure round regardless of condition of the firearm. Additionally, one of the photos clearly shows a spent round in the lower chamber (not incident chamber) with the brass severely dished. This is a clear indicator of extreme overpressure.


    • This report fails to document any expertise or qualifications of the writers such as engineering or metallurgy that would support them rendering scientific conclusions as to the cause of the failure of the shotgun in question (as opposed to perhaps using defective reloads).


    • The QSC report goes on to show a diagram of what appears to be the monoblock, barrel, and what they term a “sleeve” and points out the possible defects. They refer to it as three separate members when in fact the barrel is one structure assembled with the monoblock. This shows the complete lack of even rudimentary knowledge of firearm construction making most of their arguments irrelevant. Independent tests have shown that our barrels can withstand pressure of 15,000 p.s.i. without the support of the any structural monoblock.


    • Richard Jones is not only a QSC RSO but was actually the RSO on duty at the time of the incident.


    • QSC RSO Richard Jones is the person responsible for the selection of materials and the operation of the reloading equipment utilized in hand loading the shot shell which could have caused the eruption.


    • The report does not address any training Richard Jones received on the proper safety procedures of shotgun shell reloading, specifically on the Ponsness Warren progressive reloader. It additionally states that Mr. Jones only owned the reloader for approximately one month.


    • The Ponsness Reloader had been purchased by Richard Jones on April 1, 2009, only 40 days prior to the May 9, 2009 incident.


    • The report makes the false assumption that an operator mistake is impossible or unlikely with the reloading machine in question. The Ponsness Reloader Owner’s Manual contains, among other cautions, the following warnings:


    WARNING

    If you do not bring the handle all the way up, the machine will not index. If you notice this before the shot and powder is dropped, you can pull the handle up again firmly. If you do not notice it in time, you will have dropped a double charge of shot into one shell, and shot is spilling out the top of that shell. AT THE SAME TIME, YOU HAVE DROPPED A DOUBLE CHARGE OF POWDER INTO AN OTHER SHELL. IMMEDIATELY EMPTY ALL SHELLS FROM THE RELOADER AND DISCARD.


    We at Ponsness/Warren always suggest that when reloading Winchester, Federal or Remington hulls, use Winchester, Federal or Remington wads. We also agree that no one knows more about the inside of these hulls than the company that manufactures them.


    Most reloaders will agree that the worst part of reloading shells is putting those shells into boxes. As an extra precautionary measure, individually inspecting each shell is very important while boxing. Any abnormal looking shell should be discarded, NOT SHOT, as dangerous results may occur.


    WARNING: If you do not push the handle all the way back, the machine will not index. Your shell in station #1 will not be fully seated into its Shell Holder and the live primer in station #2 will not be seated into the empty hull. If you notice this before the shot and powder is dropped, you can push the handle up again firmly. If you do not notice it in time, you will have a clearing and cleaning job on your hands. You will have dropped a double charge of shot into one shell and shot will spill out of the top of that shell. AT THE SAME TIME. YOU HAVE DROPPED A DOUBLE CHARGE OF POWDER INTO ANOTHER SHELL. The shot you can physically see, the powder you can not. The only exception to this rule of not seeing the shot spill over is on start up and failing to insert a wad at the wad carrier station (operator errors) Pay very close attention to steps 6 through 11 on the reloading procedure. Every time the handle is pulled down, watch the Cylinder (part # 80 page 27) to ensure it indexes. If the Cylinder, for any reason does not index, clear all shells from the machine. First, shut-off the shot, powder and the Primer Feed Gate. Add no more wads or empty cases and clear all shells out of the machine. Dispose of those shells! Clean the machine of all shot and powder and return to STEP 1 of the reloading procedure.


    THE MOST DANGEROUS OPERATOR ERROR IS FAILURE TO INSERT A WAD, or have a cocked” wad in a shell - then have the operator remove it and not replace the wad. This combined with an incomplete stroke of the operating handle, (failure to index) could conceivably place two charges of shot on top of a single charge of powder. Remember, the shell at the powder drop station also will receive another charge of powder.


    THIS IS THE WORST KIND OF OPERATOR ERROR. The resulting shell can cause severe injury to the shooter or bystanders. Serious damage to the gun is also possible.


    • The warnings quoted above from the Ponsness Reloader Owner’s Manual directly, specifically, repeatedly and conclusively refute the statements of the QSC Report. Those warnings plainly establish that the Ponsness Reloader is entirely capable with operator error of creating dangerous hand loaded ammunition containing either double charges of powder or double charges of shot, either of which “can cause severe injury to the shooter or bystanders” and “serious damage to the firearm.”


    • The QSC report draws conclusions about engineering and design faults with the mono-block system of barrel production. This system is utilized in 90% of all current over & under shotgun production.


    • A major omission by the QSC report is the failure to note that the other firearm failures known to CG all involved the use of unauthorized reloads. It also fails to point out that the other gun that failed in the U.S. market was found by an independent laboratory to be conclusively the fault of extreme over pressure reloaded ammunition.


    • The QSC report makes assumptions concerning the proofing procedures at the Italian National Proof House that indicates little or no knowledge of the process and controls. It also fails to indicate that the Italian National Proof House is considered by many to be the most modern governmental proofing facility in the world with an impeccable record of safety.


    • Caesar Guerini was not contacted by the shooter or by the QSC in relation to the incident and report.


    Guns

    • There have been no documented cases of a Caesar Guerini having a catastrophic failure using SAAMI specification factory loaded ammunition.


    • Multiple independent safety tests confirm the Caesar Guerini shotguns are known to withstand pressure in excess of the PROOF pressure specified by SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute) without structural damage.


    • The safety of our guns are well documented, all Caesar Guerini shotguns go through C.I.P. international (Commission Internationale Permanente) protocols at the Italian Proof House, and are built on an action that is well proven using only certified steel with quality, strength and safety being our main concerns. Every shotgun undergoes the optional 1320-bar high-pressure test at the Italian National Proof House; this pressure is not only the maximum one established by C.I.P. and Italian law but also that shared by the SAAMI standards in the U.S. The industry standard for 12 gauge shotshells is for a maximum average chamber pressure of 11,500 psi. Commercial shotshell ammunition is typically loaded to 7,500 to 10,000 psi. Definitive Proof pressures for 12 gauge shotshells at the Italian Proof House are from 19,140 to 21,026 psi in conformance with C.I.P. International Protocols.


    We can assure you that Caesar Guerini has our customer’s safety as our utmost concern. Caesar Guerini has documented engineering reports and safety tests which clearly establish that all guns exceed recommended standards and establishes that there is no safety issue. We remind you that this report fails to document any expertise or qualifications of the writers that would support them rendering an opinion as to the cause of the failure of the shotgun in question.


    Please feel free to contact us directly at: info@gueriniusa.com if there are any questions.
     
  2. Mark Gadbois

    Mark Gadbois Member

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    Tom,
    Has your company examined any of the other firearm failures mentioned in the report?
     
  3. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    An excellent response. Thank you.
     
  4. rhymeswithorange

    rhymeswithorange Member

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    Nice, thank you. What other manufacturer has even bothered to address this issue publicly? Well done.
     
  5. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Aye, aye...
     
  6. rhymeswithorange

    rhymeswithorange Member

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    What do all the "experts" on here have to say above the sleeve now? Seems like, a "complete lack of even rudimentary knowledge of firearm construction."
     
  7. walnutmaker

    walnutmaker TS Member

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    Not being a gun scientist ---but having been around shooting and firearms for over 40 years--and being a gunsmith--I have come to a conclusion! I am mostly suspect of the fact that the NEW AA hulls are implicated in all these events regardless of the firearm maker. This along with the FACT that PW loaders were also used is a startling coincidence that one cannot overlook.

    If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it usually IS a duck. I for one will get rid of all my AA hulls and NEVER buy any new ones again. Besides the Rem hulls load better anyways. And I use Mec presses---not as nice as PW but apparently are safer.

    Best of luck to all. Phil S.
     
  8. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    A+ Tom. Thanks for posting some facts on this forum. Could you keep us updated with lab results if you ever get the gun. Wayne
     
  9. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    guerini-tom I am curious do you have access to photos of the barrel and mono-bloc before Assembly? If so they might show those that don't understand the difference in the sleeve and the way they actually are.

    I would also like to say I don't blame CG for these incidents any more than I do AA hulls or PW reloaders. I do however believe that unsafe reloading practices do have a bearing on this and other incidents of this nature. I am not saying that the people set out to be unsafe all it take is a one time mistake that creates the problem. Also if the loader get careless and the mistake can be made in the blink of an eye.

    Bob Lawless
     
  10. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    I would like to know what these "defective reloads" could consist of and just how much pressure they could generate. The reload always gets the blame without pressure data to prove it's possible.
     
  11. goose2

    goose2 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for speaking out on this Tom. Where these so called no it all people that run QSC had so much to say and are not to qualified to say it, it mite be time for CG to hammer there ass with a law suite. If the truth were known one of them was probably the janitor, one was the garbage man and one was the lawn mower. They damn sure are not to smart to know much more.
     
  12. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    CG,

    What are all these people who have purchased your guns supposed to do now?

    Several of your guns exploded during use. You cannot deny that fact.

    It would be interesting to try to exceed proof load pressures with intentional 'mistakes' on a hand loader. If we could exceed proof load pressures, then the proofing process would be proven flawed. This would be a huge deal in terms of society's efforts to protect itself. We'd have to change the proofing process. Unlikely. If we could not exceed proof load pressures, then your gun or your testing process is implicated.

    I'm in the market for a doubles gun. Your gun just got crossed off my list. I won't take the risk.

    Look for something close to home.

    Joe Kuhn
     
  13. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    CG Tom, why don't you donate one of your guns to an independent tester like Bruce Bowen to see how it holds up to a documented destructive test.
     
  14. j2jake

    j2jake Well-Known Member

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    Joe have you also crossed the "other" guns that had barrel failures off your list? I had a CG Summit and shot over 20,000 rds, mostly reloads, thru it with no problems. CGs are good guns backed by a reputable company. Jake
     
  15. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    joe kuhn

    "I'm in the market for a doubles gun. Your gun just got crossed off my list. I won't take the risk."

    Just curious Joe what is left? We have heard about K-gun, CG-gun, Brownings and I have seen a Winchester. All have had incidents of blow up. I have also seen guns that have had lesser problems of the same nature.

    So tell us Joe just what gun is left that you deem trust worthy??? You know one that has never had this type of problem. I for one would be interested to know.

    Bob Lawless
     
  16. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Says something about gun manufacturing, doesn't it?

    I'll be sure to ask around when I find something.

    That rip to the arm is gruesome.

    It's my arm I'm protecting here, not some company's reputation or another shooter's preferences.
     
  17. Hitapair

    Hitapair Active Member

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    You didn't answer the question, Joe.
     
  18. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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  19. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Here's my totally un-qualified "legalistic" observation:

    If somebody thinks they "have" something on a company that gives them legal recourse - they go to court with it. They don't waste time potentially damaging their case by flinging dung around on the internet. If people go straight to the internet, it's probably because they know they've got nothing.

    The fact of the matter is, RELOADED SHELLS WERE USED. You are done right there. Case over. You can try to make a "general" case about the construction of the gun, but courts do not rule on "general" ideas - they rule on SPECIFIC CASES where someone alleges specific damages in a specific scenario. And in this specific scenario, they're getting nothing, because reloads were used, period.

    And regardless, nobody's going to settle with you, AFTER you've already spread dung around in .pdf form on the internet for everyone to see, copy, and disseminate...so they screwed themselves there, too.
     
  20. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Caesar Guerini

    Borderland

    "If you look down the chamber of most OUs the mating of barrel to monoblock obvious."

    It isn't obvious to me I can't tell I know how the process is done but I don't see anything by looking down the barrel. Maybe you could tell me what you see.

    Bob Lawless
     
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