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CA Delegate Hammond Mocks Shooters

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by ShotStop, Jan 17, 2013.

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  1. ShotStop

    ShotStop Dedicatedto keeping gun clubs open and shooting.

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    Below is from an email from James Hammond. He obviously thinks it great fun to kick people out of the ATA for minor violations and laugh at the concerns sincerely expressed by people questioning his actions and/or those of the ATA Executive Committee.

    “..I have been reading the TS Las Vegas 1000 thread which is humorous at best. Since you met with the lawyers, Jim, and Gary, I am ready for any court proceeding or deposition.”

    Isn’t it nice that all the people who posted on the “Las Vegas 1000 Participants” thread with 7500 views and 80 comments gave James such a good chuckle? His ATA handlers must find your questions and comments funny too. We guess he missed the post where we don’t want to waste our time with a lawsuit just to make wrong people do the right thing.

    If you haven’t already read the details, follow the link above.
     
  2. CROY1990

    CROY1990 Active Member

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    Jim and Gary, I don't know you nor have I been able to shoot out west but from what I have read I beg you to SUE the ATA. How can we ever get away from the "good 'ol boy" mentality if we let them railroad members like this. The reason that this JACKASS delegate is taunting you is he knows that it will not be his dollars used for the litagation but the ATA's. This is one reason that members are dropping off at an alarming rate. I know several delegates that are hard working and have the shooters interest in mind but I have NO confidence in the EC doing anything good for the members. Once these knuckleheads get on the EC the power goes to their heads and they start to act like dictators instead of elected officers. I admire your positive attitude toward trapshooting. Good Luck
     
  3. KCDODSON

    KCDODSON TS Member

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  4. Chango2

    Chango2 Active Member

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    Didn't Pogo have something to say about internal conflicts between people who agree on a majority of likes and dislikes, in this case, liking the shooting sports? We gotta move on, IMO.
     
  5. bubbasdad92

    bubbasdad92 Member

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    I agree. If ATA officials have abused their power and legal counsel has advised you that you have cause for action, you should certainly proceed. It would be a disservice to the membership on your part for you to not right such a wrong.
     
  6. Calkidd

    Calkidd Well-Known Member

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    LOSS!!!!!
     
  7. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    A "good defense" is a "good offense"... name calling, etc. A lot of people have made a lot of "assumptions". Mr. Tyner and Mr. Bombalicki did their due dilignece months ago with attorneys, still no action? Porque? I certainly don't have the facts, and was surprised at the severity of the penalties, but there is a lot that we don't know and may not know. So until that happens, inspite of the name calling, and no dog in this fight, etc., I will support the ATA and Mr. Hammonds. A lone voice in the wilderness. Fred
     
  8. ShotStop

    ShotStop Dedicatedto keeping gun clubs open and shooting.

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    So Fred says he has no dog in this fight? Let’s count up Fred’s doggies.

    1. Fred is a member of North Hollywood Gun Club as are we. Fred ran the ATA shoots until Gary came along. The last year Fred ran the shoots the Club threw 19,000 registered targets. After only one year of Gary running the shoots the Club threw 125,000 registered targets and Gary was named ATA Volunteer of the year. The last shoot Gary ran was a 2 day shoot in August 2010. We had 130 shooters. Fred is now running the shoots and attendance is back down to about a dozen. Fred doesn’t like the comparison. Hmmm, no dog, huh?

    2. When Gary was Club President and I was Facilities Chairman, Fred, trying to prove a point about shot carry, shot a few rounds into the skeet high house in the direction of the club house. He sent this email to Jay, the skeet chairman and to Gary:

    “While at the range today I conducted an experiment. I walked over to the outer edge of our property where the big gully is and shot several lite 1 oz. #8 shot shells back at the high skeet house. I shot flat and level [did not arc the gun]. Hit the skeet house every time. You can see the shot marks on the green brick... they are brown in color. Tomorrow, I am going to take a paper pattern sheet and tape to the high skeet house and "pattern" the shot.”

    Obviously, the skeet shooters and the rest of the club members thought this was an unsafe use of a gun and not the way to treat Club property. As Facilities Chair I had to write the formal complaint for the Club Disciplinary Hearing Board. Fred was suspended from the Club for 6 months and put on probation. Unlike the ATA, at least Fred got a hearing where he could answer the charges. But, he has been trying to even that score for 5 years. Hmmmm, no dog, huh?

    3. Gary and I understand it was Fred who made a motion at a Club Board meeting a couple of months ago to have Gary and I kicked out of the Club based upon our being suspended by the ATA. The motion was tabled until publication of the EC Minutes. So, on December 5th, Fred starts a thread entitled “ATA Minutes from 2012???” His lead comment? “So where are the ATA Minutes from the August, 2012 Executive Meeting? Suppose to be posted by December, 2012. Fred”.
    Hmmmm, no dog, huh?

    As a chuckle, his second comment contained this statement: “I don't trust the current ATA management to get out of own their way.”
    Yep, Fred is a big ATA supporter.

    What we really don’t understand is why Fred seems anxious to for us to file a lawsuit because were we to do that he would be the first person we would depose. Why? Well, back in early May, just before the LV 1000, we heard that he was bragging at the club that this would be the last Las Vegas 1000. If true, we would like to know from whom here in California he received that prior knowledge. We would certainly hope that it wouldn’t be his friend James Hammond who ultimately investigated the complaint because that just wouldn't be right.
     
  9. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Does PITA have this much angst?
     
  10. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    Welll we finally flushed out the real Jim Tyner. The one who was banned from Trap Shooters.com for years. The one who threatened to sue NHSC multiple times and didn't because he had no cause. The one who is now still not telling the truth... he never held a position with the club. The one who volunterred to do "stuff" and then made up contracts that Gary signed post facto without board approval. They tried to destroy the club by getting rid of the skeet shooters and tried to close us up. The person just makes stuff up as above.
    When they were forced out we went from 60 members and dropping to 120 members today. He threatens to sue everyone he does business with. Caution in dealing with this guy or defending him ...count your fingers if you shake his hand. These penalties could not happen to two better scoundrels. Jim and Gary goodbye, we had three great years without you. I will not repsond to anything else that you wrote/write... the forum is all yours. Fred
     
  11. grunt

    grunt TS Supporters TS Supporters

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  12. ShotStop

    ShotStop Dedicatedto keeping gun clubs open and shooting.

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    Gary and I are relieved to learn that Fred is not still bitter about the past. Must be his failing memory as he evidently has forgotten receiving a copy of this letter written by the Facilities Chairman at the Club.

    NORTH HOLLYWOOD SPORTSMAN’S CLUB
    FACILITIES COMMITTEE

    Board of Directors
    North Hollywood Sportsmen's Club November 29, 2007

    Gentlemen;
    The purpose of this letter is to request that the Board consider disciplinary action in the matter of a member who has admitted in writing that he purposely fired his shotgun in the general direction of the central club facilities with the intent of hitting the skeet high house. Attached to this letter is a copy of an e-mail which the member sent to the Club's President and a past President and in which he describes his actions. Also attached is a copy of the Los Angeles County Ordinance that would seem to apply.

    As Chairman of the Facilities Committee, the President notified me of his receipt of the attached e-mail and forwarded a copy to me for my review and comment. I have to admit that I am personally appalled that an adult would consider the act of firing a weapon in the direction of the central Club structures to be justified under any circumstances. Not only does this constitute a serious breach of basic gun handling safety, it is also a willful act of vandalism under the California Penal Code regardless of the extent of actual damage.

    This behavior is inexcusable. It is not enough to claim that there was a reasonable belief that the Club facilities were vacant at the time of the act. Countless people have been killed or seriously injured because they had a reasonable belief that the "gun was unloaded" or that the movement on the other side of the brush was "a deer and not another hunter". This act is a direct affront to many of the declarations and the basic concepts contained in our Sportsman’s Pledge which we all recite upon joining the North Hollywood Sportsman's Club.

    I acknowledge that the perpetrator is a longtime member and has, and currently holds positions of responsibility within the Club. However, this means that he should be held to even a higher standard than a member who may violate safe gun handling practices out of simple ignorance. Further, if the Club is unwilling to punish a violation of this magnitude, it would seem unlikely that the Club would ever be willing to punish lesser violations and would have little moral ground on which to stand should a lesser violation be brought to the Board for consideration.

    Per the provisions within the Club Bylaws to institute disciplinary proceedings against a member provided a complaint is filed and accepted by the Board,
    I have drafted this document in consultation with the President in my capacity as Facilities Chairman. As Facilities Chairman it is my responsibility to inform the Board in matters involving the Club's facilities. I request that the Board take whatever actions it feels are necessary to preclude not only this member from repeating a similar act, but more importantly, to serve as an example that this type of unsafe and irresponsible behavior will not be tolerated on our property and certainly not by our own members.

    It should also be noted that under the Los Angeles County Ordinance, the Club, as a corporation, could also be subject to prosecution for “permitting” this type of action. This in itself demands that the Club take measures to preclude this from happening again.

    Respectfully submitted on behalf of the Club,
    Jim Tyner
    Facilities Chairman
     
  13. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    Brian... Great question..In answer to your inquiry, thankfully, the PITA has not, to date, experienced these types of affronts, or attacks. IN MY OPINION, the reason for this is because the PITA is a shooters run association, geared to promote shooting, honesty, integrity, harmony, and a general sense of "fair play" that the ATA does not. Everything the PITA does is open for EVERY member to see. The PITA has open books that are available for any member, at any time. Everyone on the PITA EC is available, at any time, to answer questions, address situations, or to just talk to regarding a concern. Personally, I like, and respect, that. There have been numerous posts on T/S.com by some ATA shooters that have shot PITA events and have noted the difference in the atmosphere and attitudes exhibited by the PITA that are not evident at ATA shoots. The ATA has, IN MY OPINION, become a far too politically biased association with no regard to the wants, needs, and desires, of their membership, nor to the sport they are supposed to represent. It appears, on the surface, that the ATA EC can, and will, do whatever they want to satisfy their own agendas. I have gone on record here on this forum, several times, stating that I no longer shoot ATA targets for these very reasons. I will not blindly follow, and financially support any organization that is not doing what it is supposed to be doing. If the CGSTA can come to terms with the Kingsburg Gun Club regarding the 2013 ATA state shoot, I will not only attend, but, I will also shoot the entire program. I won't be doing this to help support the ATA, you can be sure of that. I will, however, do it to show my support to the Kingsburg Gun Club, their elected officers, and to their members, which I believe deserves my support, as they have always shown me that they, too, have their shooters in mind when making decisions that have a direct impact on them. As for the issues between Fred and Jim Tyner, that is for them to sort out. Here again, ON THE SURFACE, it appears that Jim has the upper hand with his evidence, and Fred is the one crying "foul". As for the ATA's decision regarding Gary and Jim's suspension, and James Hammonds investigation, the whole thing reeks of back stabbing, revenge, bullying, and a group of ATA people saying "We'll show you guys", and using their positions to pull this scam off..... Yeah, I've heard it all before: "Trust me, I'm from the ATA and I'm here to help you".... Yeah... right!!! Just my opinion... Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  14. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    There appears to be a misuse or abuse of power based on the penaltys that have been doled out for what would be or could be considered a minor infraction of any rule, at best ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  15. Ray Brasser

    Ray Brasser Member

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    The title to this thread needs to be changed... Jim got a little off topic there! And why he thinks all this North Hollywood stuff needs to be dragged up again is beyond me. Wow.
     
  16. Calkidd

    Calkidd Well-Known Member

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    Ray, if you read the threads again you will see that Fred dirtied the water here.
     
  17. cnjranch

    cnjranch Member

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    No Jim, Gary, and Terry Bilbey,

    The statement had nothing to do with the shooters posting to your comments as they have only heard one side. Obviously this is a national business so somethings aren't available. Just like it would be at your places of work. I am sure the general hired help and cleaning crews don't know the details involving employee misconduct or discipline, now do they?

    The below email is just one of several demands and threats that I have received since September regarding various issues in California. The three of you have stepped over a line that is unforgivable and way out of line when you bring my profession into personal commitments. If it was any other Delegate you would not have that card to play by trying to manipulate, bully, intimidate, or threaten someones profession. Other Delegates in the past have chosen to be led by others and I wont. I wont play the politics either and accept the certain fate the comes with honesty and telling the truth at every turn. Truth is a hard dose of reality for some.

    Your statement in the below email, "We met with Lawyer", does not worry me or scare me in the least. I have gone up against many lawyers that are well known throughout California and the Country. I absolutely believe in depositions and court proceedings as that is where the truth comes out.

    "The truth does not change but stories and tales always do." Very easy to impeach One, Two or Three"!!!

    I like how you want to take everything you think you can, bundle it together, throw it on a wall, and see what sticks. Just like the comment about Fred and I being friends. To insinuate that Fred and I talked about the investigation prior to a complaint being filed is a childish statement from you guys with no factual support. Being someone that investigates crimes, conspiracies are not a common occurrence but always sound good when trying to sway others to take sides.

    This is my only post to this and the issues will be addressed at a later time. See attached email....

    Thanks to all James Hammond


    From: "Jim Tyner" <jimtyner@tmxus.com>

    Date: October 10, 2012, 11:03:13 AM PDT

    To: <california_ata@yahoo.com>

    Cc: "Bombalicki Gary" <gbomber@iq-west.com>, <terrybilbey@gmail.com>

    Subject: Please.

    Reply-To: "Jim Tyner" <jimtyner@tmxus.com>


    James,

    I was disappointed to hear that you weren’t willing to give Terry, Gary and me some time to try to bring closure to some issues. I understand that you wish to extract yourself from the letter writer hunt and I can’t say as I blame you. However, that is not going to happen if you leave behind the mess you have caused Terry, Gary and me.

    Last week, Gary and I met with Scott Carr, a partner with of Greene Broillet and Wheeler in Santa Monica. http://www.greene-broillet.com/bio/ScottCarr.asp The reason for the meeting was that Scott is a lifelong friend of Gary’s and they shot trap together as kids back in Ohio and their families have been very close. When Scott heard about how we were being treated by the ATA he was appalled and asked us to come down. Scott’s family was very involved in the Ohio Trapshooting Association going back to his grandfather being president so he fully appreciates the severity of our punishment.

    He immediately focused on the situation with the letters and after he read the linguistics reports, I would describe him as disgusted. Now, I know you have built me up in your mind as a bad guy but that is wrong. Gary will tell you that while Scott was ready to go to war on our behalf, I advocated that I didn’t want revenge, retribution or to raise a lot of unnecessary dust. I just want to get the situation resolved as quickly and quietly as possible. I convinced both Scott and Gary that I was hopeful that if we met we could have an adult conversation and see if we could find some common ground that would allow all of us to put things behind us and move on to the things that really should be important in our lives.

    If you review Scott’s firm, they are litigators with a lot of experience dealing with municipalities in their PI and tort practice. I suppose that’s why Scott asked us a lot of question exploring the concept of your being a police detective while investigating the letters as a “hobby”. We told him very directly that we had no knowledge that you had ever acted in an unethical manner. Further, that at this point in time, any type of formal complaint would be really premature and that I was confident if we met with you and just discussed things we could all walk away reasonably satisfied. He agreed to my proposal.

    However, for that to work, we need to sit down, have a frank but friendly discussion and hopefully arrive at a good result. Gary will tell you that I don’t hold grudges against people nor to I like to argue. Both require wasted energy. This will not be a beat on James, whine and rant. So, would you please reconsider and grant us the courtesy of a conversation? I think we would all find it mutually beneficial in the long run.

    Jim
     
  18. Calkidd

    Calkidd Well-Known Member

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    I honestly don't see anything wrong with what Jim wrote to you. Sure, he spoke of litigation and did mention about your career, but this was a personal letter that was meant for you and only you. Jim appears to be pretty transparent and open in this email. He told you it was for closure what more did you want him to say? After all we are talking about a lifetime suspension for sanctioned events and a 5 year personal suspension shooting registered targets.

    You and I both know "we" are held to a higher standard and we are constantly judged by our actions on duty and off. You will have to admit that something like this investigation does appear to be a conflict of interest.
     
  19. ShotStop

    ShotStop Dedicatedto keeping gun clubs open and shooting.

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    James;

    You stated above: "Obviously this is a national business so somethings aren't available. Just like it would be at your places of work. I am sure the general hired help and cleaning crews don't know the details involving employee misconduct or discipline, now do they?"

    This implies that there were other considerations as to the severity of our punishment. Of course there were. We would not have been suspended for life just because we left the $3.00 daily fee out of the program. Anyone can see this. The problem is that the real reason is a political one and you and the ATA abused your powers under the standard complaint process to achieve a political end. Basically, it is like a totalitarian government throwing a political opponent in jail for life for spitting on the sidewalk.

    Under the ATA Bylaws, the Association can throw out anyone it wishes. We have no problem with that. If the ATA would have just said "Guys, we think you are bad for the Association, adios.", then at least it would have behaved honestly. Instead, you used the standard complaint process to cook up nothing burger charges and then give us a death penalty. That is the sign of a very sick organization. So be it. We are gone, we don't want to come back. We have positive things we can do to promote trap shooting and we are doing them.

    It is nice to know that you and evidently the ATA think of its members as "general hired help and cleaning crews" who must be kept in the dark about the workings of the important people. No wonder you find their concerns "humorous at best". Happily, not being ATA members, that elitist attitude is no longer our concern.

    But, thank you for posting my email begging you to sit down and sort out the situation. We think it states very clearly, just as we have posted here, that while we met with a lawyer and he explored with us options and tactics, we don't think litigation would be beneficial to anyone.

    Unfortunately, you wouldn't even grant us the courtesy of a "frank and friendly discussion" to reach at least an understanding of why you and the ATA took the actions you did. So be it. We will let others decide as to how that refusal speaks to your character.

    You do have our best wishes to go live your life as best you can and we hope you will at least grant us the same in return. It is disheartening that when our Second Amendment Rights are under a concerted attack that we find really nonsensical things to squabble about among ourselves. Let's not do that. We are out of the ATA, you win and no matter how you won, time to move on.
     
  20. Gary Beer

    Gary Beer Member

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    Zard, you are not allowed to know why the punishment is so severe. You are only a, "general hired help and cleaning crews type of member"??? If the Delegate and the ATA won't even tell the two that were thrown out for minor violations, why should the membership get to know!!!

    Take a look at the Mission Statement that I found on the California State Delgates Newsletter:

    To listen and support every Shooter and Gun Club in California and represent your ideas and concerns at the State and National Level. This is accomplished through establishing open lines of communication between the Shooters, Gun Clubs, CGSTA Board, and your Delegate.

    Looks like the Delegate forgot his own words??
     
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