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Buyer Beware- Little Crow Shooting Sports MN

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by skeet_man, Jun 12, 2013.

  1. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

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    Just a heads up for anyone interested in doing business with Little Crow Shooting Sports in Hutchinson, MN.

    On 6/2, I won a Remington 1100 LH 2 barrel set on gunbroker from this company. Photos and description available at: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=343704609

    I picked up the gun from my dealer yesterday. When I got it home, I noticed some issues with the stock set. There is a crack in the stock behind the trigger guard approx 1.25" long (you would have had to have been blind not to see this when you were handling, listing, or shipping the gun). There is also swelling present all around the inlet, as well as some swelling around the buttplate. The forend also has an approximately 2" long crack at the rear.

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    Other than that, the gun was in relatively decent shape, except a couple dings in the ribs of both barrels that weren't disclosed. The action is in good shape, and appears to have been shot very little (I'm guessing this gun was put together from parts, since the condition of the action is significantly better than the condition of the wood).

    I called a left a message, and received a call back a couple hours later. I was told to send the gun back, and they would give me a refund including return shipping, but not including my dealer's transfer fee. So at this point, I'm looking at about a $40 loss b/w transfer fee, money order and cost to send payment, gas, ect.

    I was kinda on the fence, not wanting to have to take ANY loss. So I sent them an email, and explained that since they'd basically be losing about $70 between shipping to me, shipping back to them, and gunbroker fees, that I'd be willing to split it with them, and accept a refund of $35 toward acquiring a new stock set (which is considerably less than it will cost to buy another stock set), and we could both walk away.

    The response I received stated, "we do not offer discounts on guns already bought." So apparently they'd rather lose $70 than $35. It went on to say, "I personally boxed up the gun and the forearm was sound so it appears to either have been forced on the gun or damaged in shipment which will be determined when it is returned." This leads me to believe they are going to try and blame the forend damage on me (even though its apparent that the crack is quite old and filled with oil/grime, certainly not new), and issue a less than agreed upon refund (at which point I will basically have no recourse). Looking back at the auction photos now, and knowing where to look, I can see the crack (although the pic is kinda blurry and it could be mistaken for grain). I also find it EXTREMELY interesting that they said nothing about the stock being sound when it was shipped, so apparently they knew about that damage and sent the gun to me anyways.

    At this point, due to the fact that I do not believe they'll honor their word and issue a refund including purchase cost and shipping both ways, I'm keeping the gun and will make due with what I have.
     
  2. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Too bad. Thanks for alerting us.
     
  3. Dickgshot

    Dickgshot Well-Known Member

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    I don't know. They offered you a refund plus return shipping. How bad can they be?
     
  4. straightshooter1

    straightshooter1 Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    As to not sending you money to make up for the problem, I have a friend who has thousands of positive transactions on GB. Apparently, it is not unusual for buyers to contact the seller and claim the gun is not right in some way-scratches, crack, rust or ... and say they will not leave negative feedback if the seller refunds a part of the purchase price.

    My friend says many of these are simply trying to get something back when nothing is really wrong. He had several of these incidents when he personally handled, packed the gun.

    I have noticed some sellers on GB state, in their listings, that if the buyer is not satisfied, or something is wrong with the gun, they will refund the price but they will not refund part of the purchase price.

    While obviously the gun you bought is not right, it may simply be that the seller is one of these who won't send money back, but will take the gun back.

    Or, is just a jerk.

    Bob
     
  5. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

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    Dick- My feeling is that since the actual condition differed considerably from the auction description, I should be made whole. Differences in grading opinion are one thing (I understand that I was buying a used gun), but undisclosed substantial damage (that was not caused by the shipping carrier) is another.

    If they'd have agreed to cover my FFL costs (which still would have resulted in a slight loss to me), the gun would be on its way back to them for a refund. Or had they agreed to what I thought was reasonable (the $35 refund, which as I said before would have been 1/2 of the loss they would have incurred had I returned it to them) I would have dropped the issue completely.

    Their offer was nearly fair, what raised red flags with me is when they tried to pawn of the forend damage on either me or the shipping company, especially while tacitly accepting the fact that they knew the stock was damaged when they shipped it to me (in which case, it should have never shipped in that condition to begin with).

    And like I said before, the feeling that I get is that when they receive the gun back, and see that there was no shipping damage to the original box, they are going to claim that I was the genesis of the forend damage, and issue a lower than agreed upon refund.
     
  6. himark

    himark Well-Known Member

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    Besides not representing the gun correctly in the first place they did nothing wrong. Good business is to NOT discount. If you are un-happy refund the customer there monies. Besides they have this EXACT language in there ad.......it seems you were forewarned of exactly what you were getting into.


    "Returns & Feedback: We accept returns and send a full refund minus shipping when notified within (3) days inspection period if I grossly misrepresent an item or it has been damaged en route. Damaged item must have the original shipping carton to receive refund. If for any other reason you ask to return the item (ex. diff. opinion on condition), I will allow a return if contacted within 3 days of your receiving the item. This refund will be less the S&H and a restocking fee of 15%. Once an item is returned inspected, you will be sent a refund. Items being returned must be shipped back within 3 days. Three day period starts when the item is delivered-this is traced in the UPS data base. Positive feedback will be posted once you, the buyer, have done so and we can ensure you’re satisfied.
     
  7. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

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    When speaking with them on the phone, they agreed to refund my initial and return shipping costs, and told me to include a receipt for the return shipping cost.

    So apparently their policies aren't as set-in-stone as they'd like you to believe.

    "Good business is to NOT discount.". I'm not sure how it makes sense financially to lose $70 rather than $35. As I said, had I sent it back, they would have lost $70 b/w shipping x2 and gunbroker fees. I offered to accept $35 to ameliorate the damage.

    What say you in regards to the attempt to transfer responsibility for the forend damage to either me or the shipping company?
     
  8. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

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    Here's the crack, as shown in the auction pictures, on the forend.

    As stated before, you can't tell its a crack from the pictures (and the description indicates the wood is in solid condition), its just blurry enough that it looks like grain. However, once you have the forend in your hand, and know exactly where the crack is, it becomes evident that it was present in the gun prior to shipping, contradicting the sellers statement that it was caused by either me or the shipping company.
     
  9. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately my dealer is so busy right now there really isn't time or room to do any sort of meaningful inspection on site (I try to get in and out as quickly as possible so they can move on to other customers). The first chance I had to look at it briefly without being an imposition was for a couple seconds as I put it in the trunk in the parking lot, but by that point I'd already filled out the 4473 anyways.
     
  10. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    As far as I'm concerned, if your offered your money back, which means the money the seller received, that's great. Anything else is gravy. I wouldn't pay the shipping charges or transfer fees. That's the cost you pay for buying sight unseen. Next time buy locally, so you can inspect the gun.
     
  11. himark

    himark Well-Known Member

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    Mr. Skeetman,

    not all "good business" means just doing the cheapest thing. You are obviously not in business for yourself. IF you start discounting you take away from the very foundation of the sale. You will soon find yourself giving discounts to everyone that thinks they deserve one. You need to establish a hold the line policy and if the customer is not happy you simply refund there monies no questions asked.
    As for what I say about the POTENTIAL fraud on the forend that is speculation on your part and did NOT happen. I would say you should of sent the gun back IF you were that unhappy and took your refund. But givin the fact you suggested a discount would tell me you still wanted the gun but wanted to chissel the seller a few more bucks.

    As for not having the time to inspect it that is bs. You had time to look at it and you paid for the time to look at it with a transfer fee.

    Sorry take your lessons here and put it in your life long book of school of hard knocks.

    1. Buying from internet comes with risk and I may not get all my money back if any sometimes.

    2. Inspect the gun before taking it from your FFL. (in your words "even a blindman could see this"
     
  12. 548

    548 Guest

    Why did you pay your ffl and complete the transfer rather than have your ffl return the gun?

    The business offered a complete refund including shipping. What is there to beware about? They were completely reasonable in my eyes.
     
  13. yakimaman

    yakimaman Well-Known Member

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    Your dealer had to confirm the serial number on gun to run the 4473 data through NICS, so the gun had to be out of the box at his shop at some time. Your due diligence was to confirm the gun is what you ordered and in the advertised condition. I agree with above - not having time is BS. A refund of gun cost plus shipping both ways was more than generous and you should have taken them up on it.
     
  14. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

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    shot410ga- "I wouldn't pay the shipping charges or transfer fees. That's the cost you pay for buying sight unseen."

    Would you say the same thing if you bought a high end over/under that differed dramatically from photos and description and you would have to eat hundreds of dollars in shipping and insurance costs from and to the seller?

    Given that the item I purchased was photographed, and described, I would certainly not consider this to be a "sight unseen" transaction. Everything that I could have seen in person should have been described and photographed.

    himark- "But givin the fact you suggested a discount would tell me you still wanted the gun but wanted to chissel the seller a few more bucks."

    I'm not trying to chisel anyone. I believe my offer to accept $35 toward the purchase of a new stock set was more than fair, especially since a new set will cost significantly more than $35. I also figured I was doing the seller a favor offering the partial refund in lieu of a return, since I was mitigating his loss by half. Had I been on the other side, I would have happily accepted such a proposal, since it would reduce my loss by half. But then again, I would have never failed to disclose the issues that this gun had either.

    "you simply refund there monies no questions asked."

    There in lies the problem, this was no longer a "no questions asked" proposition when it was put forth that either I or the shipping company was responsible for the damage on the forend. This was not expressed to me in the phone conversation I had with the owner, and was only brought up after I proposed the partial refund. I believe this was done in an attempt to provide me with a less than complete refund when the return was received. The only two options for the cause of the damage proposed were either by myself or by the shipping company, and when the received the package back and saw there was no damage to the box, they would have blamed it on me, as there would be no other option, and I can't see them offering a full refund if their position is that I caused the damage.

    At this point, I'm going to keep the gun, and write it off as a learning experience, I have too much time and effort tied up at this point to send it back and take a loss on it. Am I happy, not really. Would I have paid as much for the gun had I known its condition, no. Can I make do, yes. I have another LH 1100 inbound right now that should be here Monday, hopefully between the two I can come up with something that is workable for me.
     
  15. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

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    One thing that I forgot to mention. When I spoke with them on the phone, I even offered to swap the wood set I got with another one in good condition, unfortunately they did not have any other 1100 wood to swap.
     
  16. Avatar

    Avatar TS Member

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    Of course the buyer of a used item assumes some risks that aren't there with a new item covered by a manufacturer's warranty; but, what happened here is much more blatant. The seller/dealer stated: "This semi auto is in excellent condition and has been well cared for. There are no major marks or dings to note and slight handling wear." Sorry, but that is a gross misrepresentation of the kind that I hope no one here would ever make when selling a gun in the shape of this one. This gun was not even close to "excellent condition" and the cracks should have been very noticeable to the seller.

    Since there are transaction costs, not least of all the time involved, the opportunity to inspect and return at the FFL stage should be for subtle defects and things not covered by the description. A dealer should take the time to examine and give accurate descriptions when it comes to something as blatant as cracks in the stock. There should not be an "Aha, gotcha!" moment, which is what we have here.

    It may still be a so-so deal, given the extra barrel. But, to get that gun in "excellent condition," Skeet Man is going to have to shell out $150 or more for a good used stock set--if he can find one.
     
  17. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

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    I have been on both sides of this coin. I can see where Ian is coming from but I can also understand guys not seeing things, that we as shotgun people find to be painfully obvious!

    One gun dealer I know jokingly talks about how he hates shotgun guys because they will find the one flaw every time.

    Ian... If you were sure that you had not misrepresented an item but in fact were wrong... Might you not react in a similar fashion? You know very well that you would not send somebody something that was misrepresented and you might be a little pissed at the notion that somebody is implying that you had. So much so... That you just say.. "Send it back" I know damn good and well there is nothing wrong with that gun. It arrives and you see that it does have flaws.

    If he is a dealer worth his salt he will be able to tell that the damage is old just like you mentioned by the dirt and grime in the crack.

    I am not saying the guy didn't screw you. He did. I am just putting forth the notion that it may not be as blatant as you think.

    Most dealers have had these e-mails in the past and many are guys trying to extract an extra dollar from a deal about some not mentioned tiny defect.


    This is why so many guys just say Send it back and I will give you a refund"

    I think you might be surprised if you sent it back and the guy may just fess up to a mistake. Note ...I say a mistake and not a misrepresentation!

    By offering to be reasonable you made yourself sound like a guy trying to chisel them.

    That is what you get for trying to be a nice guy. Jeff
     
  18. NMULTRARUNNER55

    NMULTRARUNNER55 Member

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    "Your dealer had to confirm the serial number on gun to run the 4473 data through NICS, ... "

    Yakimaman - this is not correct. The information provided to NICS does not include a serial number, only the type of firearm. Also, an individual can complete a Form 4473 before a dealer even has the gun in hand and then has to sign the 4473 again when the firearm is delivered as long as delivery take place within 30 days of the first date.

    Steve Nunley

    Albuquerque, NM
     
  19. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    Even though the FFL dealer doing the transfer does not report the serial number to the NICS, they have to list the serial number in their portion of form 4473, that they have fill out, and keep as their records. So, they do have to take the serial number from the gun.

    Either way, I always looked the gun over before I would leave. It really becomes a problem for the FFL though, because who is going to pay the return shipping. As the buyer are you willing to pay the return shipping, hoping to recover that, and your original purchase price if the gun is returned? In this case, seeing as the gun is not like you had been led to believe it was, even if by accident, ALL money should be returned. I think it is very important when you sell a gun to describe EVERY issue with the gun, especially if it is known. It only will come back to haunt you anyway. Pictures can do wonders, as a close-up photo would have done, as the thread creator posted of the discrepancies. I would have felt the same way.

    I however, would have accepted the transfer fees as my cost.
     
  20. NMULTRARUNNER55

    NMULTRARUNNER55 Member

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    Stl Flyn;

    Yes, the dealer gets the serial number from the firearm and records it on the 4473 but the serial number is not needed when calling NICS. Only the type of firearm (i.e., handgun, long gun, etc.) is provided to NICS. The dealer can call in to NICS without even having the firearm. The dealer completes the 4473 at the time of transfer or later that same day.

    Steve
     
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