1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Bushing Drops vs. Powder Scale

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by fssberson, Jun 15, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,375
    Well, I measured the stated bushing drops in the Alliant Reloading Guide this morning and it is not even a "Guide" ... more like an estimate. My scale was a PACT electronic and I used the provided weight to dial it in for accuracy. Using my new found #8 of Red Dot powder, several Hornady bushings, and a Spolar reloader; what the Alliant Guide stated and reality are VERY DIFFERENT. The Guide calls for a 468 bushing dropping 18.00 grains of Red Dot for 1,200 ft./sec. REALITY is the bushing drops 19.0 to 18.9 of Red Dot on ten drops. This is a full grain MORE than the book recipe and would result in 1,255 ft./sec. for ONE ounce loads.

    I continued to build DOWN [bushings 462 and 459] and came up with a 456 bushing at 18.2 on five drops. Close enough for what I wanted which was about 1,200 ft. sec. Now to test at real shooting and a chronograph.

    Any one else have issues with the called for bushings and reality? Fred
     
  2. chipking

    chipking TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,761
    Everybody does that is why we do exactly what you did. Use their recommendation as a starting point and zero in from there. Some printed data is closer than others but none that I have found are close enough that you can just take it as gospel.

    --- Chip King ---
     
  3. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,003
    Fred,

    That's why I harp on people to use a scale. You have no way of knowing what you are actually dropping, unless you check with a scale. I've usually had to go several bushings either way from the listings. Many times it's not even close. Add the usual variations between lots and you really see the need for a scale.
     
  4. stokinpls

    stokinpls Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    6,487
    My compliments on your choice of scales and willingness to use it for checking.

    Bushings are bush league. I ran into that early on with my MEC and a different lot of 700X. Fortunately, I discovered the adjustable charge bar.

    If your loader doesn't have an adjustable powder and shot measure it's a 1950s design. However, if my memory serves me correctly, the late 1950s weren't such a bad time to live in.
     
  5. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    4,364
    Location:
    Prairie State
    I have a few Hornady Apexs. Throwing a 1/2 dozen and weighing them... on average my charges are always heavier than what's listed in the guides. As I may be a bit heavier on the handle, my powder may compact a bit more than what others may throw.

    I use a trusty Lee magnetic beam scale... but unless I actually change the bushings, I expect my measuring days are over... unless I have to find a substitute for my "Clays"! (lol)

    regards to all,

    Jay
     
  6. psfive

    psfive Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2006
    Messages:
    672
    This is the very I use adjustable charge bars in my MEC's. If it says 18.4 grains I get 18.4 grains, as weighed by my scale. Paul
     
  7. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,375
    Check with Alliant today and they were very nice. They did state that the powder drop numbers came from Hornday. Fred
     
  8. Didreckson

    Didreckson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    886
    Location:
    Central California
    My new Spolar was setup for 17 grains of 700X. Dicksie emailed me to say that it took two bushings larger to get the drop with their powder. I have two new jugs of 700X that was purchased in the last 30 days, and when I started loading, I was getting 17.1 to 17.2 on every drop, even though the bushing was quite a bit larger than the web site called for to get 17 grains.

    I am sure it has to do with lots, and the raw materials that go into the powder that can fluctuate considerably. That is the beauty of a digital scale....
     
  9. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,375
    Amen. Dicksie is so helpful. Fred
     
  10. BT-100dc

    BT-100dc Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2008
    Messages:
    1,487
    As Reagan said "trust but verify". Powders may vary from lot to lot. I'm sure the MEC people (the only bushings that I've ever had experience) has estimated on the light side. The vibration of your press (if any), your variance with your operation of the handle, powder baffles, may also make a difference. As a retired Safety Manager, it is my recommendation to aire on the safety side and VARIFY by sampling your throws with a weigh scale. Then and only then can you be sure that you're throwing your desired charge. Same goes for pistol and rifle loading. It has always amazed me when an experience trapshooter goes to the line and has multiple duds (projectile dysfunctions) during a round mainly caused by not allowing enough time for the charge bar to pickup a complete charge. Also, good idea to check your powder drop tube to make sure it's free from oil, grime, spider webs and so on. Darrell
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    Darrell- You posted a good point that might be overlooked by many. The speed/force a person pulls down on the operating handle will change the powder drop. Two different people can operate the same machine and get different powder drops.

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. dverna

    dverna Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,717
    Pat,
    I seem to have that problem with just me at the handle. Drops on my 800+ vary +/- .2 gr

    I will be installing an electric drive this week. It should be more consistent if the power company can maintain a steady voltage.

    Don Verna
     
  13. edthearcher

    edthearcher Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2007
    Messages:
    191
    Location:
    wisconsin
    glad you posted your results, I got into trap shooting only 3 years ago. altho I have been reloading for over 45 years, I also own a pact scale, among other electronic scales. I posted my findings a year ago what I found useing 700 x and a new mec 9000 reloader. and what each bushing put out as compared to the reloader manual. altho humity, air conditoner runing, even the furnace runing in the winter, will give you slightly diffrent readings on a good electronic scale. the sad thing I got jumped on by some TRAP SHOOTER MEMBERS. glad you found out thanks ed ackley
     
  14. JerryQuill

    JerryQuill TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9
    The supposed powder drops for a given bushing are only a recommendation. It also depends on how much moisture is in your powder and other such factors. Everybody pulls the handle a little differently and that also has an effect on the amount of powder a given bushing will drop. The production run on a batch of powder will also have a slight variance, but not much. Your technique is very important when reloading and it should always remain the same, as if you vary your technique and apply different speeds or pressures the powder drop amount will change. When I did manual reloading I only had a variance of about 4 to 5 FPS. But I could get a minor change from time to time. When I went to the MEC hydraulic machines, the powder drop always seemed to be a little light for a given bushing compared to manual reloading. But I still maintained about a 4 to 5 FPS spread. There is no jolting with a hydraulic machine, they are very smooth and I think that's why the powder drops tend to be light. As a matter of fact, the machines are so smooth that I don't even bother to bolt them down. It makes it a lot easier when I switch from gauge to gauge. I just slide them around on my work bench.

    Jerry Sinkovec
     
  15. WesleyB

    WesleyB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2007
    Messages:
    1,475
    I think the powder companies need to weigh powders again. Mine charts are not even close to what my loader does. I know you need to weigh your own powder, but surely they can be closer than what they are when you are trying to pick a bushing. Oh well guess you cant have too many of those??
     
  16. GCTC

    GCTC TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    66
    Having the exact same weight of powder from two different runs of powder will NOT necessarily give you the same velocity. It depends on whether the powder is blended to be volumne consistant or weight consistant.

    You only know the velocity for a given weight or volumne if you measure it.
    Rod
     
  17. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,722
    You need a scale w/bushings!!!!!
     
  18. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    15,648
    Location:
    Green Bay Wisconsin
    A single stage loader thumps the charge in the bushing 5 times.

    Only the most dissolute moron would think it should throw the same as a progressive.

    This cabbage has been chewed on here so many times it's sauerkraut by now.

    HM
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.