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* BUNKER TRAP TRAINING *

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Shooting Coach, Jan 20, 2008.

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  1. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Dear Charlie

    If you have been shooting for long, you must know that a shooter can often develop bad habits. At least, he will likely allow a flaw in his techniques to sneak in that not only costs him targets, but also may be something he is unaware of. Sometimes, well meaning fellow shooters will give advise that should be ignored.

    Most shooters do not realize if they peek slightly, or allow their focus to drift toward the front sight, which will often cause them to slow or stop the muzzle and drift behind the target. Many folks will change their focal point, hold point, or foot position and not be conscious of these things.

    Many shooters do not know their gun does not quite fit them and that they are trying to adapt to the gun.

    A well travelled Coach can see these things and work with the shooter on how to correct them and hit more targets. This improves confidence, which leads to paying more attention to technique, which breaks more targets.

    With all respect to ATA shooters, Intl' targets are harder, and require a technicaly correct shooting technique. As an old ATA shooter, I know that we have all managed to hit a target in spite of peeking, bead checking, or simply running out of swing. This is a lot less likely to happen on a Bunker field.

    Even Tiger Woods has a Coach.

    As an Intl' Shotgun Coach, I have found that a sound technique on the ATA field is a tremendous advantage when stepping on a field that throws targets under the influence of Steroids! I personally use about 95% of my ATA technique when on the Bunker field. YMMV

    I will not go on about the subtle differences in the guns, loads, blinders, yada yada. You will find this out. One of the best shooters in the world, Kim Rhoade, uses what is basically a field gun. I use three Sporters for primary, backup, and spare. (any excuse to buy another fine shotgun) LOL
     
  2. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    There are a number of reasons to use a coach at this point. Bret erickson completely changed my way of looking for the target. Its taking me a couple of years to learn the new way but its worth it. I only wish I had good coaching at the start of my bunker shooting like Chubb, Erickson,Carlisle hah. The had Burl Branham for a coach.

    Tom
     
  3. mercedesman1981

    mercedesman1981 TS Member

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    Mike,

    Great thoughts. Has anyone tried to use a log or diary to note what technique you had on good days that improved your scores?

    Mike
     
  4. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    doggal

    Suggest you take the coach course that USA shooting offers.

    Had an opportunity to sit in on a portion a few years ago and found it excellent. Its geared towards training the elite athlete. You would learn many things that would Joel your SCTP shooters.

    Tom
     
  5. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    As I said, Even Tiger Woods has a Coach! Without his Coach, he would be a good club player that no one had ever heard of.

    ANY shooter, good or great, fair or fantastic, that does not use the services of a qualified and committed Coach on a regular basis, is throwing a part of their money away, and is not living up to their full potential, or dreams.

    In the Clay Target Sports, outdated or unsound techniques will give trainers and shooters bad tips and advice, which may well put them in a downward spiral that may cause them to get out of the game.

    In Defensive Firearms and Less Lethal Training, the severe injury or death of a defender and/or the inappropriate severe injury or death of an offender may result.
     
  6. Allen Chubb

    Allen Chubb Active Member

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    Gentlemen,

    The day you stop learning is the day you'll must likely become room tempature. Please don't be arrogant enough to think that you know it all and that once you've won this or that event that you no longer need any coaching. Coaching is a fundamental and an extremely important, but yet a tremendously understated aspect of this game. Yes, I seek additional coaching from those that I truly feel have special insight into the really technical and psychological facets of the game. I could spend all night writing on this website, but here are some very important tools to success:

    SHOOTER'S DIARY:

    Keeping a shooting diary is without a doubt an absolute must for success. The importance of this diary can not be understated. This is your road map to success and a link to your past resolved troubles. You must record your successes and failures, because they are who you are as a shooter. Just keeping a record of what scores you shot during that day are insufficient. You have to record your technique, pschycological state, ammunition, equipment, weather, diet, range conditions, etc. It is your "BIBLE" and just recording that information is once again useless unless you continually review it and learn specific successful behavoral habits from the information. This all sounds like psycho babble, but please read on.

    WORLD CLASS EQUIPMENT:

    The equipment is obviously an important part of the success component. You're not going to become a world class shooter and experience success by shooting an 870 pump gun that your Grandpa gave you when you were sixteen. You have to examine everything from guns to glasses as well as everything you wear to include your underwear. This is not meant as a joke, but I'm dead serious about this matter. You must feel comfortable and at home in your attire, because this is one less thing that you then fixate and devert your attention too from the real task at hand; breaking clay targets. You have to have total faith in your mechanical equipment; guns, glasses and ammo. Without this faith, you can easily loose focus and lose of focus in this game is instant failure.

    MENTAL MANAGEMENT TRAINING:

    Burl Branham used to tell us that OT is 95% mental, 3% physical and 2% dumb ass luck. The mental percentage is more than accurate. I'll make a recommendation for each of you to purchase the mental management system from Lanny Basham's company in Texas (Mental Management, Inc.). It will be the best money you've ever spent. I must caution you that just buying it and listening to it, isn't going to bring you one more target to your total unless you act on EVERY issue. Remember, theory is useless with out labratory work to verify the theory. I sent Lanny a testamonial this past summer after the 2007 Grand Prix of America. When I arrived at the range for that match, there was absolutely no question in my mind that I was going to win it. I already knew in my mind that the event was already decided before the first target was shot. I already saw myself standing on the podium with the trophy tucked in one arm, the U.S. flag around my neck and the plaque in my other hand. I saw the exact photo in my mind, that you see on the other thread. This wasn't arrogance, but simple confidence. I knew that I had done everything necessary to win that event and I simply went out and performed to the EXACT level that I expected and trained for weeks prior to the match. Plan and simple, IT WAS A DONE DEAL!

    Some of the other posters like Shooting Coach and PerazziBigBore are exactly right in their commentary. Regardless of my (29) years in this game, I still need coaching. We are human. We develop bad habits for one reason or the other and sometimes it takes someone else, that knows you very well to point those things out, because he's watched you long enough to know what's wrong. To steal a phrase from Alcoholics Anonymous, I consider myself a recovering "Target Misser". I should address you all as follows; Hi, I'm Allen and I'm a target misser. I'm working like a dog and yes; still studying in my 29th year to limit my relapses.

    Every coach that I've ever spoke with or taken lessons from has taught me things that I didn't know or was even unaware of that I might have been doing, thinking or acting. Johnny Pellielo has known me and watched me shoot for years. When we trained with him last year, Johnny came up to me and whispered in my ear "Change The Music". This meant that I was shooting to agressively and jumping the birds as they came out of the house. He wanted me to change from "Rock & Roll" to "Easy Listening". Johnny admitted to me, that his biggest problem is just the opposite. He said, that he fails to stay vigilant and falls into a passive mode at times. Marco Venturini, tells of a funny story with a "Monkey". The monkey sits on his shoulder and they actually have conversations with each other while he's shooting. That's how he breaks the tension and keeps his mind off of negative thoughts. How do I keep my mind from entertaining negative thoughts? During the Grand Prix, I was replaying the theme to the movie "Gettysburg" in my head. I find that music inspirational and it kept me focused and calm. During the "Fall Selection" match I was replaying an inspirational song from Josh Groban's new CD. In short, advanced level shooters are as much in need of coaching as new shooters, but on a much more complex aspects of mental management.

    Education is a wonderful thing. Don't be arrogant enough to think you don't need help, because we all do at times. I'll soon be (49) and both I and my girlfriend decided to take Italian language courses at the local community college this winter. The goal is to learn and keep your mind receptive to learning. This is part of my planned goals for the 2008 season, not because we're going to be shooting in Italy again this year and I want to be more fluent; which is an alterrior motive, but more importantly to remain receptive to learning. As strange as this may sound, it all leads to crushing more clay targets.

    Best Regards,

    Allen Chubb
     
  7. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    to get to the top ranks of any athletic endeavor you need the assistance of many people and a coach or instructor is an absolute. i find the analogy of tiger woods especially apt - his coach has no special talent for the game yet he was able to present information to the greatest golfer in the world that made him even better. sometimes a great coach does not have to come with the resume of accomplishment but he/she does have to be able to communicate and get their message through to the athlete and the athlete has to be willing to hear the message.

    that all sounds simple enough but in reality is extremely complex and results between coach/athlete are mixed until you find the right combination that allows magic to happen.
     
  8. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

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    Any suggestions as to how to go about setting up a diary (such as how to break it up into sections)? I've wanted to start one for some time, but can't figure out how to set it up so it'll be of the best use to me.
     
  9. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    What Allen said about continuing to learn throughout our lives is so true. Most good trainers in my specialties spend up to $10K annually on training, travel, and tuition. Since I am not that good, I spend about twice that amount. LOL

    Especially in the Defensive and Law Enforcement training arena, current training is CARDINAL. A paying student DESERVES the best, most recent training a Coach can possibly deliver. A non paying young athlete or SCTP Coach wanting an advantage for his team deserves the same.

    I have found that regardless of the type of Instructor or Coach training I take, it applies to most things I teach. It also improves my ability to impart information to my students. Defensive techniques involve positive re enforcement and downloading data into the cognitive brain until it is stored in the reactive brain. Successful clay target shooting is the same. Whether you are on the Bunker field, or in a firefight with bank robbers, having confidence in your gear, your well practiced techniques and operating through your reactive brain (subconscious) is a tournament winning combination in the one hand, and a successful operation in the other.

    This simply means that one practices enough with proper technique until, once the target is identified, conscious thought is no longer required, or is at a minimum. If, while running up a flight of stairs, you began to think about it, you would likely break your neck!

    When a Coach or Instructor quits taking refresher training, or strays from mainstream techniques, it is time for that fellow to reassess his priorities and take off his Ego hat, or it is time to do the world a favor and RETIRE.

    When a shooter decides he no longer needs refresher training, he WILL get into a downward spiral of missed targets, and frustration.

    One of the Defensive trainers who trains me takes one MONTH a year and goes to Thunder Ranch for refresher training. He has the reputation of being one of the best trainers in the world. He knows that refresher and new training keeps him on top.

    Ask YOUR trainer about the last training class HE took.
     
  10. Les Greevy

    Les Greevy TS Member

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    Good comments here on a very important and often misunderstood aspect of producing elite shooters. I think the next issue of Trap & Field will have an article about selecting a coach.
    As a successful coach and a coach trainer I can tell you that good long term coaching is not just a tip here and there or a day at the range but requires an integrated, structured plan and training outline for each athlete to take him or her from one level to the next and beyond and allow the athlete to peak at the selected matches.
    The plan has to be reviewed regularly to keep from becoming stale and to be sure you are keeping up with coaching methodologies and to meet changing needs and goals. Even successful coaches and athletes who rest on their laurels and do not continue to innovate and improve will soon be passed by.
    The whole concept of teaching complex skills is undergoing significent new thought and revision. (google Decision Training)
    Shooting diaries or journals are very important tools. There are a number of examples but a good one can be found at BJ Mc Daniel's website www.deadtargetschool.com.
    Lots you could talk about on this issue, these are just some of my thoughts.
    Les
     
  11. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    I only wish that the level of coaching that we have today had been available when I started Bunker shooting nearly 30 years ago. At that time no one was doing anything except the Army. Its only been in the last few years that I have been able to get the coaching I have needed. I find it difficult to make the changes at this point in my life but realized it is necessary.

    I have started a collection websites and other links to pages that other bunker shooters might find helpful. They are posted on the Gator Skeet and Trap website (http://www.gatorskeetandtrap.com). I have found the Trap Coach articles by Kevin Gill most helpful.

    I find Allen Chubs comments about Basshams mental tape on target. Its interesting that we considered doing one of Lanny's seminars at Gator but could not get the Shotgun shooters interested. The local rifle shooters were ready to take half the cost but the scatter gun guys weren't interested.

    One closing point. Bunker is so demanding that one has to work every angle to shoot well. If our ATA or NSSA friends spent as much time training, receiving instruction and working on each target as we do no one would ever miss from the 27.

    Its interesting to note that most of the best shooters in this country and in fact probably the world come form the Bunker Trap community. Dan Carlisle recent winner of the National Championships in Sporting Clays, Ray Stafford, Susan Natrass, Richard Faulds etc all came from the ranks of bunker shooters.

    Tom

    p.s. yes I will be at Gator when you arrive. Bring plenty of Ammo.
     
  12. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    Gator is not affiliated with the University of Florida. Come on down and shoot with us.

    Tom
     
  13. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Les is absolutely right about elite long term shooting. One reason I prefer to train with Les is that he has no ego. He is there to help you shoot better, not tell what a fantastic trainer he is. BTW, he IS a fantastic trainer.

    Most folks have the "I know what I'm doing" syndrome. A good Coach will not press the issue. If you want the training, come to me. I will not chase after you.

    As far as Lanny's subliminal training, that is interesting. I use self hypnosis techniques to help with my shooting. I used it successfully to cure a disabling flinch. Release trigers are not allowed in the Olympic shooting venue.

    I use it to help my visualize my pre shot and shooting routine.

    I am too lazy to have a shooting diary. If I run them, I know I did things right. If not, I generally know why. I do like for committed Intl' shooters to keep a diary. Sometimes, it is hard to simply get them to come to practice! I am 60+, and worry more about the next generation of shooters and champions. This dog has had his day.
     
  14. Les Greevy

    Les Greevy TS Member

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    Thanks Shooting Coach. We are going to be doing some really neat stuff with thw kids this season. Les
     
  15. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Somebody pinch me. I must be dreaming. NOT ONE SNIDE COMMENT ON THIS POST!

    Excuse me while I go take my anti-psychotic meds. LOL

    Dear Les

    When is your camp this year? A phenom I wanted to send to your camp last year had conflicts which would not allow him to go. (parents)
     
  16. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    James Russell has put a few pearls of wisdom in his books, some hoopla, some Bravo Sierra, and some stuff that is plain wrong and misleading.

    Go ahead and buy the books, but don't think it is without fault. I would not buy them again. I don't remember when I DID buy them.
     
  17. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Some things that come to my feeble memory are; writing off shooting as a business expense without being in any type of business. Oh yes, the total foolishness of using anything but premium shot (if you can find it now), canting the gun HARD to the left for hard lefts and to the right for hard rights, are some of the first things that come to mind.

    Also, the choke MUST remain free of any fouling. RIGHT. I will take my Bore Snake to the line and clean it between shots. My Squad will LOVE me for that. LOL

    Also, the idea that the book is so "revolutionary" that one must leave it in the car to read between events, and that one must re read it dozens of times to begin to absorb "the tremendous amount of information" in the book.

    The term "shameless self promotion" occurred to me.

    As I said, there are a few pearls of wisdom, some hoopla, some Bravo Sierra and some plain wrong stuff in the books.

    As far as what you said about the fellow with the video, there are MANY great shooters in this sport. There are precious FEW great trainers.

    When I train with the Kings of their sports, such as Les Greevy, Wendell Cherry and Terry Hetrick, my scores go up IMMEDIATELY. I will also say that if you shoot worse after paying a trainer, something is not right. The one possible exception may be a shooter going from one eye to two or two eyes to one.

    As a left handed left eye dominant shooter who shoots right handed and two eyed, I do not go there. I use a natural method to shoot that is used by many top shooters. For $90 an hour I will show you. You may need to work with me for many years to acquire this "secret" technique!

    For SERIOUS shooters, a diary seems to be a good idea. It may help with positive re enforcement. I do not personally keep one, but after shooting 50 years, one of the few things still in my failing memory is proper technique for each discipline I shoot or train. If I miss ten hard right birds in a Bunker round, trust me, I do not NEED to write it down to remember. If a student "peeks" or "directs the orchestra" with his gun barrel, I don't ask him to write it down. I suggest he stay in the gun, or to focus on the target, not the bead.

    Believe it or not, a sixteen year old phenom I have worked with for two years can see flaws in my technique as well as anyone out there. I guess I should have charged him more!

    Earl Scripture, when asked how to shoot Doubles, said "Load two, shoot two". No hoopla from that fellow.
     
  18. Les Greevy

    Les Greevy TS Member

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    Shooting Coach,
    The NRA Advanced Junior Shotgun camp at the North Mountain Regional Training Center in Pa. will be June 30-July 3. National Coach Lloyd Woodhouse who is retiring after the Olympics will be in attendance. Application/ registration information should be on the NRA website soon. There will also be a camp in Saint Jo Tx. in August.

    The purpose of this camp is to introduce good young American style clay target shooters to the international games of Olympic trap, double trap and skeet. Many graduates of this camp have gone on to Junior Olympic, National Development and even National Team appointments and have represented the US overseas.

    Anyone with questions, please feel free to e-mail me.
    Les
     
  19. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    The Marine Corps is full of a bunch of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children

    Semper Fi
     
  20. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Dear Sport

    It would seem the point of any diary would be to put your dreams, how to have fewer bad days, and how to have more good days, and the memory of them into prose.

    As I opined, a method of positive re enforcement.

    Go ahead and get a notebook and start now. You probably have things you want to put in writing so you don't forget.

    I DO understand what is needed, but I seldom listen to any one person telling me how HE does it. Different folks have different levels and different methods of giving and receiving training. I would listen to Les Greevy or Lloyd Woodhouse. Most others, I would take what I needed, and put the rest in file 13.
     
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