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Browning Goes Cheap!

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by ddsflyer, Jun 4, 2010.

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  1. ddsflyer

    ddsflyer TS Member

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    Have you seen the new Grade I Citoris? Browning has cut corners to where John Moses Browning would spin in his grave. The new engraving is a butt-ugly pattern that is stamped (crudely) into the receiver. Even the old roll engraved Remington 1100s looked better. The tang is now a short tang instead of the elegant long tang they used to have. The forend latch no longer is pinned or screwed to the wood with 3 pins, now it is just a press fit. The wood has an odd grayish cast to it, makes me wonder if it is actually walnut. The barrel rib support posts are now hollow two-legged affairs instead of solid posts like they used to be. The list goes on and on. Browning remains silent on the issue when asked about it. Looks like the corporate bean counters have finally won.
     
  2. xringjim

    xringjim TS Member

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    If true, I'm liking my purchase of an old Broadway a lot more tonight. Jim
     
  3. mr.mark

    mr.mark Member

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    You mean "cheaper"

    They have been cheap for a number of years, the recent XT combos I have handled in the last few years feel like plastic when compared to a perazzi, kolar or even the older brownings.

    The old broadways and even the old lightning I have are how Mr. Browning intended them.

    Mr. Mark
     
  4. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    Go tell this to BT-99 owners. There are most likely more BT-99's shooting trap than any other 5 guns put together. I shoot a ljutic but still have a BT-99 in then safe. As do many high-end gun owners.
     
  5. coveybuster

    coveybuster Member

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    The original BT-99's are great guns, but they were not well received when they first came out. My dad bought a 1970 BT (which I still shoot) and had fellow shooters call it a "Bastard Browning" because it was made by the "japs". "Real" Brownings were made in Belgium. Granted Pearl Harbor was a lot fresher in everyones mind, but when Miroku came into the picture, not too many people had nice things to say about Browning. Maybe history is repeating itself?
     
  6. Allen-MX8

    Allen-MX8 Member

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    I shoot a Perazzi, but I also have a BT-99 in my safe. Allen
     
  7. old folks

    old folks TS Member

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    Allen, you can still double your money.
    Old Folks
     
  8. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    First SKB, now Miroku. See article from Business Week at link above.
     
  9. TERRYB

    TERRYB Member

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    MrSkeet410,

    Thanks for the Business-week article.....however, I don't know if it is very accurate...an example is their statement of ....."As anomalies go, this one is staggering. Guns killed slightly more than 12,000 Americans in 1998, the latest year for which figures are available"........Their number of 12,000 is very hard for me to accept......Terry
     
  10. larryjk

    larryjk Member

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    This is from the Bloomberg press. Is there any possibiity of figures being played to make the point more damning?????
     
  11. Joe Potosky

    Joe Potosky Well-Known Member

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    Statistics, Gun Control Issues, and Safety

    Gunshot wounds inpact severely on the criminal justice as well as health care systems. Some basic statistics are important in understanding the magnitude and severity of the social and economic burden to the U.S. The subject remains contentious. (Glantz and Annas, 2009)

    In the U.S. for 2006, there were 30,896 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 16,883; Homicide 12,791; Accident 642; Legal Intervention 360; Undetermined 220. This makes firearms injuries one of the top ten causes of death in the U.S. The number of firearms-related injuries in the U.S., both fatal and non-fatal, increased through 1993, declined to 1999, and has remained relatively constant since. However, firearms injuries remain a leading cause of death in the U.S., particularly among youth (CDC, 2001) (CDC, 2006).


    The number of non-fatal injuries is considerable--over 200,000 per year in the U.S. Many of these injuries require hospitalization and trauma care. A 1994 study revealed the cost per injury requiring admission to a trauma center was over $14,000. The cumulative lifetime cost in 1985 for gunshot wounds was estimated to be $911 million, with $13.4 billion in lost productivity. (Mock et al, 1994) The cost of the improper use of firearms in Canada was estimated at $6.6 billion per year. (Chapdelaine and Maurice, 1996)


    The rates of firearms deaths in the U.S. vary significantly by race and sex. The U.S. national average was 10.3 deaths per 100,000 population in 2001. The highest rate was 34.5/100,000 for African-American males, more than double the rate of 16.3/100,000 for white males and well above the rate of 2.7/100,000 for white females. (CDC, 2004)

    http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html
     
  12. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    Larryjk - The political essay within the article was not appealing, but not surprising considering the source. I did enjoy those parts addressing the business and history of Miroku.
     
  13. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    If Browning wanted to be a "Perazzi", could it could also charge $5000 for a BT99... Remington couldn't get $3000 for the American made 90T in its IPO, you think Browning could ask $2000 more today?!

    As a production gun and at its price point, we get one heckavu firearm! Not having seen the recent XT offerings, I can't speak intelligently, but upon handling or review - no one is forcing anyone to sign on the dotted line...

    regards all,

    Jay
     
  14. Sky Buster

    Sky Buster Sky Buster TS Supporters

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    I recently purchased a XT Unsingle from Guns Unlimited. I have to
    tell you I'm dammed impressed with it. The fit and finish is out-
    standing. The quality of the wood, would make Perazzi blush. For
    the time being at least, my Silver Seitz will sit in the safe.
     
  15. southjblue

    southjblue Active Member

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    Just wondering---I never shot a BT99 but I have a friend that has the old BT99 and he says it kicks the heck out of his shoulder? How does the recoil stack up against the old B-ways and mod 12s???Thanks---sjb---
     
  16. straightshooter1

    straightshooter1 Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    My wife and I shoot Perazzis for trap, she a TM-1 and me, an MX-6, I have an MX-3 as a back up, but never seem to need it. Not sure why I have it, in fact.

    BUT, when I first started, I shot a very well used Browning Citori. It never broke.

    My wife and I both have Citoris for skeet and sporting clays. Shoe got hers from a friend who has shot and shot and shot it, and it has never broken. Mine is a used Sporting Clays Model from the 90s, and it, so far, has been flawless.

    That Citori I started with was sold to a friend who shot it a lot, then sold it again when he bought a 682. So far as I know, it's still shooting.

    Brownings just seem to keep on working. Of course, that's a good thing, since sending them to Browning for repair is pretty much a guaranteed 6 months or more vacation.

    If you want to dump on Brownings, their customer service, IMO, is the place to do it.

    If either of ours breaks, I plan to send it to Doug Braker. Never used him, but there are so many things said so positively on this Forum, that I want to give him a tr.

    Bob
     
  17. ddsflyer

    ddsflyer TS Member

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    I have several older Citoris made in the 80's and they are all well made, shoot well and I expect them to last several lifetimes. The new ones however are junk. If you doubt me, go to your local dealer and see for yourself. The engraving in particular is galling. I'd rather have a plain receiver than one with that stamped garbage on it. And still Browning wants $1800 plus for one of these things.
     
  18. Bisi

    Bisi TS Member

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    Times change. I've got a BT99 and it is a great gun, haven't shot it in years though. Really don't know about the new ones except the perception of em, now they are considered to be "starter" guns, or game guns that you shoot heavy loads through.

    My Dad was a shooter and he started hauling me to gun clubs probably before I could even remember. Back then it seemed like everybody shot basically the same gun or at least the same type - a pump gun. Model 12, 870 field, 870TB, 870TC, or some variation. They were the Ford and Chevys of the day. If someone was shooting a Browning back then you thought he had more money than sense. That was the "Cadillac" of guns back then. Sure we heard of a guy in the other town owning an Ithaca, just like we had heard of a Rolls Royce, but we never saw one. Browning was top of the line back then.

    Now they are consider beginner guns, have they changed or just our perception? Probably a little bit of both.
     
  19. mx2k33

    mx2k33 Well-Known Member

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    Got to love the CDC and their stats...look a little deeper though and find that more Americans are killed annually by their doctors (medication errors, etc.) than by firearms.
     
  20. bluedsteel

    bluedsteel Member

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    I haven't seen the "Grade I Citori" that is referred to in the opening post, but to describe the Browning XT, XS, or BT99 shotgun as "cheap" is ludicrous.

    Compare the fit and finish, the wood, the internals, the durability, the bluing, the rib quality, and the performance, and most trap guns struggle to come anywhere close at twice the price.

    No, they're not Krieghoffs, but they don't cost $12,000, either.

    Like it or not, whether one is talking guns, cars, watches, optics, electronics...etc., for the money, it is hard to beat Japanese products...recalls or no recalls...

    bluedsteel
     
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