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Browning Citori Brown stains revisited....

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by K4AA, Mar 15, 2009.

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  1. K4AA

    K4AA TS Member

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    I have a new Citori XT. I have been cleaning the exterior surfaces of the barrel at least a dozen times. I have used CLP and Hoppe's #9. Although the surface appears perfectly clean, when I clean it with CLP or anything else there is a brown stain on the patch. First I thought it was the protective shipping lube, but after so many cleanings, I doubt it. Anyone know the reason? Has anyone spoken to Browning about it? BTW both sets of barrels in the Combo do the same. Please out of kindness, no BROWNing jokes!

    Joe
     
  2. ysr_racer

    ysr_racer Active Member

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    Just keep rubbing, that's what I did.
     
  3. spritc

    spritc Active Member

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    Use some Flitz polish then oil and see what happens the next time you clean them. Hopefully you are storing your Browning in a dry safe or gun cabinet.

    Steve
     
  4. K4AA

    K4AA TS Member

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    bump
     
  5. Easystreet

    Easystreet Well-Known Member

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    After doing whatever internal cleaning I feel is necessary, the last thing I do before putting a gun away is to wipe down the metal with an oily rag. Since I've used the same rag hundreds of times, it is already brown, so I couldn't tell if there were any brown stains on it from the gun or not. How do you know that the brown color is not from the oil you used?

    Anyway, my guns all look fine and don't show any rust, so I have no reason to worry about it. Do your guns LOOK rusty?

    Easystreet
     
  6. K4AA

    K4AA TS Member

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    Easystreet: no, there is no visible rust. I use clean patches each time. CLP is almost clear. Definitely brown stains. It doesn't happen on any other of my blued guns. Gun is always wiped down. If you wipe it down with a clean rag after shooting: no stains. Clean it with CLP or Hoppe's or REM oil: brown stain. As Poirot said: "A puzzlement!" Joe
     
  7. GunDr

    GunDr Well-Known Member

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    Let me see if I can shed a little light on what you're finding. Having set up and run bluing (black oxide) systems from small 8 gal tanks to 60 gallon tank sysyems, I've run into this "brown" that just never seems to disappear.

    When running the actual bluing tank, the one with the neccessary "salts" to turn the metal black, a perfect set up is a clean tank, good salts, clean water, and the correct temperature. Most systems, large and small, will also need a degreaser tank, a cold water tank, and a clean boiling water tank, as a minimum.

    The process involves removing any previous applications of oil or dirt that may have accumulated on the metal before going into the degreasing tank. The degreasing procedure will only remove a minimual amount of oil. Any grease on the parts will not be completelt removed. Just wiping the metal of first is good enough.

    After degreasing, the degreasing solution (soap) is removed by a rinse in the cold water tank. This tank always has a small continual water flow, to help keep it clean. From here, it goes to the bluing tank.

    It is here that the parts turn black. Temperature plays the biggest part for a nice clean job. Most rebluers, like us gunsmiths with small tanks, run our tanks through a temperature range. Those temps are generally 280 degrees to 290 degrees.

    As the water continues to get boiled out of the bluing solution, this solution becomes more concentrated, raising the temperature. So through each tankful of parts we blue, the temp will start at around 275-280 degrees. as the water boils off, the temp rises. When the temp hits around the 285-290 degrees mark, the chemical reaction takes place, and the metal turns black. On occassion, some parts and guns contain higher levels of nickel or chrome and other metal alloys. These alloys may require the temps to go higher to allow the metal to blacken. Such is the case with nickel steel M-12's and Springfiels receivers. Once the parts are completed, water is added back to the solution to bring the temp back down, and they are ready for the next batch.

    So far, it's all pretty cut and dry, no big secrets.

    Now we come to the larger operations. Most manufacturers do not have the time to start a 60+ gallon tank at 275 degrees and then run it up to the neccessary blackening temp. It could take an hour or more. So in some instances, they will run several tanks at varying temps. This is where some problems can arise.

    Having run larger systems, I've run into this brown "funk" myself. Having everything just perfect, sometimes thing go awry. Some type of contaminent may have entered the bluing tank. The worst is copper. A copper penny can kill an 8 gal system. Another is not degreasing the parts sufficiantly, and causing a slight oil skim on the bluing solution.

    What I've found to really cause the brown to occur is putting parts into the tanks at the wrong temps. Because most steels are an alloy, each alloy needs to be hit will their correct temp through the process. Using multiple tanks, that particular temp can be missed. Dropping a part into a tank that has exceeded the particluar temp that was needed generally will lead to the brown "funk" that some of you experience. You can wipe the metal for days and days, it it just never disappears. The reason is because a particular temp was missed and the part does not completely get black oxided (blued) but iron oxided (rust). It's not severe, but it's there on the surface of the metal. Then once this has happened, it tends to accumulate in the tanks, and they will need to be cleaned.

    Another cause is having a tank over-heated. Nickel bearing metals tend to need a higher temp 305 to 315 degrees. This temp nears the upper limit of the bluing solution. Going over 320 degrees begins to burn the salt solution. Burning some of the chemicals in the solution can lead to all kinds of colors...purples, browns, reds, greys.

    OK, I've rattled on....the brown you keep wiping off should not be there. It was a poorly done bluing job, and should be redone. In the rush to keep production going and costs down, the limits of a proper job are getting pushed, and at times proper procedures may get skipped, or a part entered the system at the wrong temperature.

    Some companies also use a "pickling" solution right after the degreasing. This "pickling" is a quick dip in a weakened acis solution. This I guess is to help open the pores of the steel for good solution penetrating. If there is a hesitation from the acid to the water rinse, a flash of rust can form, preventing the bluing from forming properly.

    Browning are not the only guns I've seen this, Remingtons tend to have this also.

    Doug Braker
     
  8. K4AA

    K4AA TS Member

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    Doug, thank you for your illuminating insight. I went and grabbed a Browning BPS field that I bought awhile ago but have not used at all. It does the same thing: brown stains. Both the Citori and BPS come from the same plant, Miroku in Japan although they are months apart in mfg date. Amazing! You can't see it but it's there! I'll give a call to Browning tomorrow and see what their story is. Joe
     
  9. Easystreet

    Easystreet Well-Known Member

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    Doug,

    Excellent explanation. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

    _________________________________________________________________________


    Joe,

    My guess is that the "oils" you are using also have some cleaning agents in them. This cleaning agent is causing the rag (or patch) to turn brown when you use it to wipe down the guns. You might try some different oils to try to find one that protects against rust but doesn't cause the brown stains on the rag or patch. Good luck.

    Easystreet
     
  10. sean justice

    sean justice TS Member

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    doug, what do you use as a oil to wipe barrels down before putting them away?
     
  11. K4AA

    K4AA TS Member

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    I spoke to Browning Customer Service this AM re: Browning barrel brown stains. They were very friendly and cooperative. The short answer is they have never heard of the brown stains. They are going to research the issue with the engineers (Miroku, I assume) and they will e-mail me when they get an answer. I tend to agree with Easystreet that it is a reaction with the cleaning agent in CLP and other oils. I am going to try different oils (salad, motor, olive) and see what happens. I'll report back. Joe
     
  12. GunDr

    GunDr Well-Known Member

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    Unless an oil has any type of acid in it, or the oil itself is brown or dark tan in color, nothing should come off the blued metal.

    STAY AWAY FROM WD-40. WD WILL dry out and leave behind a residue, that you'll be wiping off for a long time.

    Take some Gun-Scrubber and spray the metal very well. Once the metal has dried, wipe it with a clean white rag. You should not see anything on the rag, you should still see white. If the metal has the "funk" it should still show up.

    I just tried this on several of my guns, even those with a bead-blasted finish, and it showed no residue. The only time I had a color change was when I applied the oil, then it was the same color as the oil.

    Right now I'm using JB (Justice Bros.) #80. I know the salesman and he stops in to chat and drops off several cans (free), among other lubes (free). I haven't seen this oil dry out. I'm sure any lube will work just like its intended to work...ie Tri-Flow, Rem-oil, Break-Free, etc.
     
  13. Big Az Al

    Big Az Al Well-Known Member

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    Doug,

    Very few, people talk ( maybe "KNOW") about the temp differrences in coloring alloy's.

    It is good to see someone (else) trying to explain it!

    Al

    Another oddity of Nickle steel, if it is not put in at almost the lowest operating temp off the bluing bath, it is hard to not get red or purple highlights, even though it takes the higher temp to turn black
     
  14. Richshoots

    Richshoots TS Member

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    I just had my Browning O/U barrel reblued and and I have experienced the same thing. The bluing looks terrific,but each time I wipe it down with an oily rag. Inasmuch as bluing is a form of rust process, I assume that this is what to expect and I will just continue to wipe. I have noticed it is getting to be less as time goes on.
    Rich Larsen
     
  15. Easystreet

    Easystreet Well-Known Member

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    Joe,

    If you are looking for a safe, neutral, inert oil, just go to the drug store into the Laxative section and buy a bottle of Mineral Oil. The stuff is so safe, you can drink it. In fact, that's what most people do with it.

    Mineral Oil is also the main ingredient in Baby Oil to put on a baby's chapped butt. The manufacturers just add a little perfume to mineral oil and sell it as baby oil (probably at a much higher price).

    Easystreet
     
  16. GunDr

    GunDr Well-Known Member

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    Rich,

    You didn't mention what type of Browning bbl you have, because if it was a Superpose bbl, or a Citori bbl that was reblue with the rust blue/slow bluing method, yes, you may have a little brown come off the bbls each time you wipe them down, and it will diminish.

    There are several slow bluing methods, but all of them require the metal to actually rust, but in a very controlled enviroment. So a little residual effect will linger for a short time. This method is use to protect the integrity of the soft lead/tin solder holding the ribs and bbls together.

    Doug
     
  17. Dednlost

    Dednlost Member

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    Cold blue will do the same thing. Clean it real good with acetone and see if that helps.
     
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