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Brian in Oregon/Sinking of the Titanic Metallurgy

Discussion in 'Off Topic Threads' started by BL350, Dec 11, 2011.

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  1. BL350

    BL350 TS Member

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    Dear Brian in Oregon,...Did not want to continue on 9 mm barrel thread. But did want to comment on your sulphur in the Titanic ship's hull steel. I do not buy that theory. Modern Metallurgy & Fatique/Failure Analysis came out of WWII. My mentor and teacher gave me a book in 1969 that used two examples. An empty WWII Liberty ship docked in Boston harbor broke in half and sunk. And the British "Comet" early crashes & repeated failures that almost stopped aviation.

    That Liberty ship steel was present in several hundred ships, but the ships operating in tropic warm waters did not show any failures. Failure was traced to the combination of the manganese content and a weldment junction and operation in the COLD WATER OF THE NORTH ATLANTIC. The good news is that a new steel AISI specification was written specifically for Ship steel. The failures in the Comets led to new aircraft aluminum alloys that would withstand fatique cycling in cold/hot temp. extremes.
    The study of metallurgy has brought me into contact with many "failed parts" in different fields and yes, I have disected failed firing pins, leaf springs and other pieces in my favorite trap guns.

    In closing, the main reason the Titanic sunk was the CAPTAIN chose to run fast & break records in an area with ICEBERGS. Bad judgement on his part because he took a lot of nice people with him! ....Respectfully submitted.....Ex-Jet Boat Bill
     
  2. HSLDS

    HSLDS Well-Known Member

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    Pulling on long lost memories here, but as I recall the sinking of the Titanic was traced back to defective rivets.

    After striking the iceberg the water-tight doors SHOULD have saved the ship, but there was a brittleness in the rivets that allowed them to fail from the unexpected pressures from the hull deformations after the impact. This led to hull plates separating well beyond the impact zone and above the water-tight door zone. This in turn resulted in the sinking. Ultimately allowed the hull to split in two.

    I am not sure WHY the rivets failed - I recall an unexpected level of some element or compound (my recollection was too much carbon - but could have been sulfur or manganese) that caused the brittleness.

    Any naval history buffs out there??
     
  3. omgb

    omgb Well-Known Member

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    The nickle content of the steel ws off. The plates on the hull shattered due to the poor steel and the cold water. That elongated the crack past several bulkheads. None of the bulkheads went completely from floor to overhead, thus as watter filled the compartment it spilled over the top into the next.
     
  4. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    What sank the Titanic was the impact from the iceberg and not defective steel plates. The ship Olympic was the sister of the Titanic made from the same composition steel, at the same ship yard and it sailed the seas for 20 years.
     
  5. Dougbbbb

    Dougbbbb TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    The reason it sank was traced back to the inferior iron in the rivets, plus what omgb said about the bulkhead doors. All could of been saved if Captain Lord of the Californian didn't turned off his radios go to bed and not respond to the distress flares when told about them coming from the Titanic.
     
  6. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    There are numerous reports on the Internet about the steel quality of the Titantic. Actual pieces of steel were recovered and tested. The quality of the steel is not theory. Here is a report that goes into a bit of detail but in terms understandable by non-engineers. Whether the use of modern steel would have resulted in buckling rather than failure of the plates is subject to conjecture, but some ship design engineers believe the Titantic might have had a chance to survive the impact if the actual water breach had been considerably less.

    Testing the Titanic's Steel

    By Henry Baumgartner

    In 1996, several samples of steel from the Titanic—a hull plate from the bow area and a plate from a major transverse bulkhead—were recovered from the wreck site and subjected to metallurgical testing by Prof. H.P. Leighly at the University of Missouri-Rolla, as well as at the laboratories of Bethlehem Steel and the National Institute of Standards and Technology. Chemical testing revealed a low residual nitrogen and manganese content, and higher levels of sulfur, phosphorus, and oxygen than would be permitted today in mild steel plates or stiffeners. This indicates that the steel was produced by the open-hearth rather than the Bessemer process, most likely in an acid-lined furnace; the steel is of a type known as semi-killed, that is, partially deoxidized before casting into ingots. (Other fragments of the Titanic's hull have yielded slightly different results, suggesting a degree of variability in the chemical and, hence, the mechanical properties of the steel used in the ship.)

    Excess oxygen can form precipitates that can embrittle the steel, and will also raise transition temperatures. In the absence of sufficient manganese, sulfur reacts with the iron to form iron sulfide at the grain boundaries; it can also react with manganese, in either case creating paths of weakness for fractures. Sulfide particles under stress can nucleate microcracks, which further loading will cause to coalesce into larger cracks; in fact, this was found to have been the mode of failure in the shell plating of the Titanic. Phosphorus, even in small amounts, has been found to foster the initiation of fractures. Of course, much of this metallurgical information has only been learned in the years since the Titanic went down.

    To determine the steel's mechanical properties, it was subjected to tensile testing, as well as the Charpy V-Notch Test, used to simulate rapid loading phenomena; the test used samples oriented both parallel and perpendicular to the original direction of the hull plate. The ductile-brittle transition temperature (using 20 lbs.-ft. for the test) was found to be 20°C in one direction and 30°C in the other, compared with —15°C for a reference sample of modern A 36 steel—and a water temperature of —2°C on the night the ship collided with the iceberg. The Titanic steel was also shown to have approximately one-third the impact strength of modern steel.

    When the Titanic samples were also examined with a scanning electron microscope, the grain structure of the steel was found to be very large; this coarse structure made it easier for cracks to propagate. Rivet holes were cold-punched, a method no longer allowed (they must now be drilled), nor were they reamed to remove microcracks.

    The steel grain size; the oxygen, sulfur, and phosphorus content of the steel; and the cold-punched, unreamed rivet holes were found to have contributed to the breakup of the Titanic, along with the steel's relatively low ductility at the freezing point of water. The shell plates showed signs of brittle fracture, though some plates demonstrated significant plasticity.

    Of course, the science of metallurgy has advanced considerably since the Titanic's day, and William Garzke of Gibbs and Cox and his collaborators emphasized in their report that "the steel used in the Titanic was the best available in 1909-1914" when the ship was built. In fact, they add that when 39,000 tons of water entered the bow, "no modern ship, not even a welded one, could have withstood the forces that the Titanic experienced during her breakup."
     
  7. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    It's just a shame Jack and Rose never got rescued so they could get married and live happily ever after.
     
  8. B-Rod

    B-Rod Member

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    Brian - your statement is partially The titantic had two major issues 1 being Ice and the 2nd being low in Manganese content.
    The combo was a tragic event.
    Bill Rod - Metallurgical Engineer Alcoa
     
  9. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    <i>"It's just a shame Jack and Rose never got rescued so they could get married and live happily ever after. "</i>
     
  10. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    <i>"Brian - your statement is partially The titantic had two major issues 1 being Ice and the 2nd being low in Manganese content. The combo was a tragic event. Bill Rod - Metallurgical Engineer Alcoa"</i>

    I have never stated different.

    It is obvious that the leading cause of the Titanic sinking was the impact caused by the imprudence of her captain.

    The steel used was brittle because of how it was made, what it was made from, and how the rivet holes were made. This steel was even more brittle in icy water.

    Conjecture, and I stress conjecture, is that the ship MIGHT have been able to survive the impact if modern steel had been used. It's a moot point because modern steel did not exist at that time. But some structural and ship design engineers believe the damage would definitely have been less. Whether this would have prevented enough water to enter to doom the ship is pure conjecture, but nevertheless it is an interesting point.
     
  11. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Great trapshooting thread.
     
  12. claybrdr

    claybrdr Well-Known Member

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    You the hall monitor, Barry?
     
  13. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    It would have been best placed in the "Off Topic" section where "Off Topic" subjects belong. That's what "David" the owner intended the "Off Topic" section to be used for. This would keep the non-shooting related subjects out of the "Shooting Related" section.
     
  14. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Somebody just needs to ask if the Titanic offered trap shooting like modern cruises.
     
  15. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    This DOES make one question the wisdom of shooting modern ammo in guns made in those times.

    Should I run Super Handicaps in my 1915 Parker?
     
  16. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    If your Parker is a DHE grade their should be "titanic steel barrels" stenciled on top the rib. I wouldn't shoot in Alaska or anywhere where there's icebergs.
     
  17. Bisi

    Bisi TS Member

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    Coach, I shoot STS Nitro 27s through my Parker.

    Brian, It's just as well Jack and Rose didn't get together. Jack wouldn't have found a job, then he would have took his frustration out on her. Forced to leave she would become homeless and out of dispair take to working the streets. By the time She was 30 she would have been found dead in a Hells Kitchen flophouse. Throat slashed by some John.

    Jack would turn to rum running during Prohibition, and run afoul of the NY Mob, and get gunned down at age 29 in a Brooklyn speakease. By the Titanic sinking at least one had a decent life.

    Didn't the "Comet's" rectangular shape of it's windows lead to the metal fatigue which caused that airline to have some failures? Now all airlines had oval windows.
     
  18. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Bisi,

    You gave wayyyyy too much thought to that whole Jack and Rose thing. LOL

    .......................................................................................



    I watched a program on the Comet and its failures. I believe the final ruling was metal fatigue but indeed the square shaped windows allowed stress points not found on round and circular windows.
     
  19. Bisi

    Bisi TS Member

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    Ever notice the real Titanic sank in less time than it did in the movie? In the movie it just keep dragging on and on and on. I think I went to see the movie at a theatre with the X, I remember saying out loud that I wish somebody would put a torpedo in it, so it would put everybody (movie goers) out of their misery.
     
  20. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    The wife is a Titanic everything fan. She watches every program thats on TV on the subject and has that dreaded movie on DVD. So i've seen that damn movie more than i care to admit. When the traveling Titanic display came to the St.Louis Science Center, she had to go. Luckily her friend is equally nuts and went with her.
     
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