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Breaking Targets

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Dr.Longshot, Dec 22, 2011.

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  1. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Breaking Targets is in my opinion 99% mental, when I can get myself in the zone I will break all my targets, the problem in my old age now is keeping my self in the zone, I try to use the same technique I used years ago, I never looked at the target before I shot, as I used to read the trap, but quit doing that when they installed interupters.

    What I do is look at the ground about 15-20 feet in front of me, I find something to look at, a hull, or a wad or something so my vision is not affected when I see the target.

    I used to look for a Four Leaf Clover, I don't know what woulod have done if I had seen one. But doing that kept me in the zone, I blocked everythig else out.

    Some good shooters did not want to shoot w/me as I would not look at targets
    and they told me that is why they did not ask me to shoot with them, they wanted all eyes on the targets so if someone chipped one they wanted it called.

    I still try to do that today, look at something on the ground and stare at it.

    Some of you may want to try this out. It worked for me.

    Having the ability to tune everything else out works.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  2. Rich219

    Rich219 Active Member

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    The mental aspect is definitely one of my main problems. My mind starts wandering and thinking about everything you could imagine. I started using my iPod while shooting a few weeks ago and it seems to be helping with the mind drifting problem but we'll see how that works once the warm weather gets here.
     
  3. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    No its 99% visual! Of course the argument could be made that we see with our brains and not with our eyes so it is indeed a neurological process.

    It's more Instinctual and reactive habits. This zone thing is a crock created by the psychologists to further their profession.

    So much has been learned about the function of the brain and it's plasticity in the last five years that it makes much of the traditional Psychology and Psychiatry obsolete. Neurology is going to be the window into how we function in the future.

    Focus is a way of describing it but if you tell your self I must see the target every time your about to call for a target the rest can go on autopilot.

    I would suggest that looking at targets; (really looking at them correctly)
    would do more for you than looking at stationary objects all the time.

    Looking at something as close as 15 feet is well inside the distance your eyes need to be adjusted to before calling for a target. Infinity as far as eye focus is concerned will be past 30 feet and were not even talking about convergence for two eyed shooters which would suggest that we allow our eyes to focus on a point in front of the trap house around the distance we are breaking targets or further. NEVER CLOSER!

    I hope this creates a better insight to what Gary is saying. He knows what he is trying to say. There are important distinctions that can mislead people in to thinking that there is a mental component to shooting. There is but it so small and it takes no effort at all when learned correctly.

    Joe goldberg
     
  4. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Gun Fitter, I have to disagree a little. I don't look at targets either, I usually look at the ground by the trap house, or maybe the fifty yard stakes. But the human eyes can focus from close up to infinity almost instantaneously.

    Dr. Gary, one thing that is rarely discussed in shooting sports is that eye muscles need exercise just like any of the other muscles in our body (not like trap shooters are into exercising). As we get older these eye muscles need more attention, and you won't even break a sweat doing the exercises. FWIW, click on the above link for some eye exercises.

    Wayne
     
  5. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    wayneo Almost is not instantly. Your information is incorrect and in fact it's probably around .05 to .10 of a second it's just neurologically impossible to focus instantly. You may think that it does but it doesn't our brains trick us in to feeling that we do.

    All of the best shooters look at targets almost all the time it's the best eye exercise for shooting. I have asked and talked to over a dozen world champions about what they do with their eyes. (The nice thing about my job is I have access to all of these shooters and most don't)

    I know this may seem foreign to you but there are striking similarities how the best shooters approach looking at targets. I know this because I have taught clinics or worked closely with many of them on their own guns and those of their clients.

    FYI The difference between Instantly and a .05 reaction to focus is almost 3 feet of target flight.

    Again I hope this helps to dispel some widely held myths or misleading explanations.

    Joe
     
  6. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Joe, my information is correct, and I have to disagree. Accommodation of the eye is the name of what happens when your eye changes focus. Young eyes can change focus from 7 cm to infinity in 350 milliseconds. The target would have barley moved in that time frame.

    However, you are probably correct on how the top shooters go about looking at targets. Unfortuntly I can't see what they see. Nor have the time and money to practice like they do.

    Wayne
     
  7. ljutic 111

    ljutic 111 TS Member

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    I'm not an all american but do break my fair share of targets . I watch every target thats thrown on my squad and mentally break each one . I hold a soft focas well beyond the trap house into the leaves of the trees near the shot drop zone . Thats my style of shooting and others have theirs .
     
  8. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    OK the change is 350 milliseconds I might even give you that however the reaction time to start the change??????????? I'll bet its something more like .05 of a second. You see there is a processing time to initiate the change.

    Look at drag racing reaction times..... .30 is quite good Now think about it.

    Here is another problem it's a moving target best visual acuity exists for only a short period of time. (Wayne could you explain why?) Longer for the best shooters but on a parting trap target it takes around 10 yards of travel before you can clearly see the target then it fades from crisp focus for most after around 20-25 yards of flight. According to Wayne We should clearly see a target once it clears the top of the trap house with no further travel.

    Reading Medical Journals or even attending Medical School Won't give you the answers unless you look at how the experimentation is performed and data is collected. The hardest thing in research is properly designing the experiment and then proper application of the data. (I happen to be a subscriber to the AMJ Neurology update and review the information every day.)

    The medical field is filled with prejudice and very resistant to any contradictory information or different thinking about what their conclusions may be.
    Joe
     
  9. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Rubbish. HMB
     
  10. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Why not just stare at the end of your barrel. Every eye professional related to shooting has instructed to keep your eyes at infinity because the eye requires less effort and time to focus on objects in the same plane...
     
  11. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    The end of a barrel is so much closer than infinity! Mike your right less eye strain and since infinity is considered to be 30 feet and further that's where your eyes should be. Anyone preaching differently has not done any proper research in to both the function of vision or surveyed enough top shooters to understand this.
    Joe
     
  12. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    One size shoe can't be a fit all and neither can eye advice. Some people,(myself included) can see a whole complete target as soon as it appears above the roof line. Other's, when looking for the target there, see a target with a long tail streak that won't disappear for several more feet or even yards! One's ability to see a whole complete target (without the streak) is where he should be looking for the target in flight. There and not at something out in the shot drop zone! Why work or strain your eyes adjusting back and forth when it's unnecessary?

    Hap
     
  13. Ross

    Ross Well-Known Member

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    Well I "play" scorekeeper more than I "play" shooter and find (for me) if I use a fairly soft focus in the general direction of the 50 yd. stake I see the target sooner because the target will always appear in my field of view and will be seen as a solid target & not a streak by the time my eyes do focus on it. And I certainly don't want to "miss" a chip, those people out there in front of me have GUNS. (grin)

    When shooting I look in the same place, it's a mental thing with me so I try to keep my tiny little brain on alert to look for only one thing, that little ORANGE target & also try to watch as many other targets as I can & mentally try to break them, just seems to keep me mentally alert & ready when it's my shot.----- Seems like if I'm looking at or thinking about anything else I keep hearing that nasty 4 letter word, I hear it often enough anyway when I'm the shooter, you know that word so I won't say it here. (chuckle) Ross Puls
     
  14. dalog

    dalog Member

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    I wish Phil Kiner would put his 2 cents in on this. He has done a bit of research both as an instructor and shooter and I have found it to be spot on.
     
  15. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Joe, I was being facetious about the end of the barrel. Why would you ever look for something at 30 feet! You know the targets going to be at minimum 48 feet when you can first see it....

    You eyes always focus better in, than out...
     
  16. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you guys should post your average when giving advice so we rookies know who is right?

    I tend to agree with BigM-Perazzi. BTW 98.86 16's ave.
     
  17. Claymuncher

    Claymuncher Member

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    ljutic 111 Has it right IMO


    " watch every target thats thrown on my squad and mentally break each one"


    It keeps your mind and eyes in focus and while you are breaking everyone elses birds you are not letting your mind wander. Focus on the cap or the ridges not just the bird as a whole.

    CM
     
  18. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    I agree with what a lot of you have said and also disagreed, I am concentrating on an object or looking for a four leaf clover while waiting for my turn to shoot, when the shooter in front of me has shot, I am moving my gu and my eyes to where the targhet is going to be thrown before I call for the target, I don't need milliseconds here, there is much more time expired and my eyes are adjusting to the distance, while I am mounting my gun, when the gun hits my shoulder, I am setting the trigger and getting feady to call for the target, a couple of seconds have transpired here, my eyes are at what you call infinity when I call for the target, I see the target rims if there is one, I don't see any tail at any time day or nite shooting. When shooting the old Remington targets I can actually see the inside of the ridges of the target, since White Flyers are thrown there is less of a rim, but a dome and I see that dome very well. I carry a pretty high singles average when I am shooting them regularly, and I carried a decent handicap average.

    When I miss a target I lost concentration, or I did not hold the gun tightly to my shoulder, nothing more ,nothing less. Because my gun fits me and I know exactly why I missed the target.

    When you get to that point that you know what you did when you missed the target you are on tract.

    I used the ZONE word as where I am mentally when I am shooting. When I am concentrating I hear nothing, see nothing but the target.

    When shooting in the wind you really need to be concentrating on that target,
    and I generally know where I am going to break that target.

    Shooting a trapgun w/high POI is very good for me and my style of shooting, I shoot by instinct or what some call spot shooting.

    The very best spot shooters I have ever seen were Britt Robinson and Larry Gravestock both texas shooters.

    Gun fit and knowing your guns POI is the most important thing

    Also you need to shoot shells of the same speed, for the best results all the time at registered shooting.

    Play with speed and you play with missing targets.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  19. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    Gary's clarification of his process helps it's now almost perfect!

    I would suggest looking at a further object to concentrate on just to keep the eyes more relaxed.

    I would just differ with one thing said "Gun fit and knowing your guns POI is the most important thing" Seeing the target all the time is the most important thing.

    Good shooting and merry Christmas
    Joe
     
  20. Joe Potosky

    Joe Potosky Well-Known Member

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    RE: Maybe you guys should post your average when giving advice so we rookies know who is right?

    As in other sports, the best sometimes are not the best teachers...
     
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