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Blown Emilio Razzini Hombra Barrel

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by REDNECK22250, Sep 6, 2008.

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  1. REDNECK22250

    REDNECK22250 TS Member

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    Please see a description of what happen to a friend with myself and 5 others.

    ‘The Russian’ was on the back of my ATV with the 12ga as 2 weeks ago we left to go hunting for 9 days near Warren in Western, New South Wales, Australia.

    We use shotguns off the back of ATVs.

    Main loads are factory SG’s, and my hand loaded 9 ball SG’s and 1oz Slugs.

    However I was given some SSGs.

    After firing 200 or 300 hundred shells through the Emilio Rizzini Hombra on this trip (lots of animals taken), we fired about 100 SG’s then the top barrel blew up. No hang fire.

    No slugs were fired this day…We don’t recall a miss fire on that barrel. The gun had just fired both barrels only 30 seconds before, so unlikely to have anything in the barrel (mud, sticks, etc).

    This was the only shell fired from a box that now (after a closer look and dismantling) looks like someone else’s (not our groups) reloaded shells. I bought about 250 shells off someone who told me they are all factory loads. It is now obvious that these 25 were reloaded.


    Shell description:

    Powder is unknown black round disks that are shiny on top and bottom but dull on sides, but weighed 30.4 grains

    lead shot consisted of 17 balls of total weight 1.25 oz

    Hull was Win Ranger AA

    Wad was white with spike in middle and with no wings.

    White fill was around the lead shot.

    Top was crimped and not melted/stamped.


    Shotgun:

    Emilio Razzini Hombra 30” Sporter U/O with screw in chokes.

    Chokes mounted were cylinder (top barrel) and Improved cylinder (Lower barrel).

    Gun was bought new and was in excellent condition, cleanish bore, no pitting.

    Had fired more than 300 shells since last cleaned (a week earlier).



    A wad is still in the top barrel very close to the muzzle. It appears fairly normal looking (not mangled)

    Top barrel is pushing on lower barrel. Centre? Rib is coming apart in 2 places about 6 inches, and 10 inches down the top barrel. No other bulges are detectable by eye.


    The shell that caused the problem is the actual one in the photos. It shows no sign of overpressure though. The primer is still firmly in place, no cratering, Hull has no splits, brass base looks fine...


    We are still trying to find the possible powder (at this stage only buy sight). I realize sight is not very good, but it has excluded quite a few powders.

    We suspect it maybe a pistol powder.

    We asked the guy I got them from but he is adamant that they are all factory loads…(he loads 44mag and 243 rifles also)

    We only want to find the cause and if it’s the shell, to get them off others before this happens again.


    Any idea what could have happened?

    I know it is hard to tell by the photos but ideas are welcome.


    Photo showing damage to his hand was taken a few hours after accident.
    The T-shirt is another story all together…

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  2. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Green Bay Wisconsin
    That's rather large shot. A 2 & 3/4 inch load of #4 buck, around .22 caliber size, is 27 pellets.

    The shot size should be on the shell. If it doesn't say a size commensurate with what you have, of course it's a reload.

    The only single post wad I know of is in the economy Federal and Estate target loads. Of course that's in America, YMMV.

    I would definitely have the remaining loads tested.

    Glad the injuries were slight.

    HM
     
  3. Texas Ton

    Texas Ton TS Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Wow, also glad the injuries weren't any worse.

    Along with halfmile, I think the hull has to say what's loading (size) in the shell from the factory. But I've never heard of that Winchester load (Ranger) either, so it may be a foreign loading. Is it a true AA, is it really a brass base? Magnet won't stick to it?

    Here, of course, I don't think we've ever been able to buy a AA with anything larger than 7 1/2's in it, not in my time anyway.

    Have you ever seen these shells for sale over there, AA Rangers? Might look at a foreign website and see if they're available in anything other than target sized shot? But I've seen foreign AA's and none of those had brass bases, brass flashed steel.

    If you could get a picture of the powder, I'd almost bet someone here has seen it before. Sounds almost like Clays.

    Also get a picture of the wad, the only thing I've seen other than what halfmile mentions, is a Gualandi spreader without the petals which are easily removed.

    The other thing is the "White" substance, likely Grex or similar, and can get you in trouble in a hurry if you don't watch it.
     
  4. REDNECK22250

    REDNECK22250 TS Member

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    I added a bit more info and more photos...

    The reason I put it this topic on your site is that you have a lot of information and experience between you. Clay shooters also fire more rounds and know more about their guns and ammo...

    I should have stated that I'm in Australia but don't hold that against me ;-)
    The shot size is what we call SSG and yes that is very large shot. We shoot goats, pigs, etc.

    We are now 100% that it was a reload...

    The shot size on the shell is #4 (rabbit shot here) but is well covered by the handwritten SSG.

    The powder is not one that myself or a very experienced rifle and pistol shooter has seen. We have looked at the powder charge loads and can't find any near 30 grains that look like it.

    In books, by charge weigth it could be Hogden HS-6, Hogden Longshot, IMR SR 7625, 4756, Winchester 540, WSF,but I don't know wha these look like...

    Still not sure about the wad. It has a peak in the centre. No petals and I can't see an marks where it had petals detached. It look very even so I doubt the petals have be cut off it. Also parts of the section that would hold the petal have very small extra moulded material from manufacture. I've not seen these before and I get mine imported from the USA as it's cheaper!!!

    It a true Winchester Ranger AA. Even though it hasn't got the AA stamp it is the same. The base is brass coated steel (thanks for the magnet idea).
    These hulls are probably the most common used for reloading in Australia.They are maining bought as once fired from clay ranges and the like. We reload them only the once. Again very common practice.

    When we buy the heavier loads they are almost all filled with a filler. I've been told this is to stop them rattling and damaging the side walls of the hull. I do know about this and don't use filler...

    I'm going to see a good gunsmith this week...

    I've added a few photos of the components and more of the chamber, etc.

    Sorry if I've added too many photos...

    Anthony



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  5. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Something caused excessive chamber pressure. My inclination is to direct attention to the powder. This might not be the result of a single catastrophic failure. It is possible that several prior improper loads gradually damaged the barrel producing a slight bulge or very small cracks within the metal and finally, the last one blew out the chamber wall.

    Pat Ireland
     
  6. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I sorta agree with Pat except the danger in my opinion came as a direct result of using grex filler. All my manuals listing grex type of loads mention the very high chamber pressures when used. That combination along with 30 grains of powder seems too far over the top, pressure wise.

    <a href="http://s142.photobucket.com/albums/r104/HapMecTweaks/?action=view&current=P1000086.jpg" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    That primer tells the tale of being subjected to pressure two times. Lightest indentation fired off the charge. Massive pressure build-up set back the spent primer into the firing pin with a much greater force creating a second deeper pocket around the pin. That would be my best guess. Hap
     
  7. TC

    TC TS Member

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    What do the abreviations "SG & SSG" mean?
     
  8. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    That filler material look like styrofoam to anyone else? I've never seen any filler that looks like that. Hap
     
  9. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Ha, I'm with you on the primer and the high pressure from the shot buffer.

    I loaded lots of #4 buck (buffered) for geese and there were many caution warnings on the package(I used commercial buffer).

    I can't make out what the blockage in the top barrel is. Did the wad never make it out the end of the barrel?

    Definitely send the remaining shells to White Labs.

    Someone should buy you a new gun if you ask me. And add a little more for stress and aggravation.

    HM
     
  10. no powder

    no powder Member

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    the picture of the muzzle with wad looks peculiar.do you know the barrel was clear before the bad round?
     
  11. Pull & Mark

    Pull & Mark Well-Known Member

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    I have never seen any powder that looked like that in any load I have made or have seen. Does anyone out there have any Idea what kind of powder that might be. I have no clue. I too think that the pressures were on the very top end of many shots until the metal finally failed. Probably not just one or two loads. I too say find out what powder it is, and go frome there. Good Luck and Break-em all. Jeff
     
  12. Hollywood Marine

    Hollywood Marine TS Member

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    From the appearance of the powder, it is neither a flake type nor an extruded type. It appears to be a flattened ball type. That should eliminate a lot of powders from consideration in this matter.

    Doug Humble
     
  13. REDNECK22250

    REDNECK22250 TS Member

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    In responce to several bits of feed back from you guys (or ladies):


    When the shell was fired it was only fired once (ie no miss fire), I didn't notice that it had what looks like 2 indents on the primer...


    What do the abreviations "SG & SSG" mean?
    SG is what you call OO buck shot. We load 9 of these 8.43mm (.332")balls into a 1.125oz shell.


    SSG is 3 Buck in the USA. It has 17 balls in an 1.125 shell, or 19 in a 1.25 shell. ball dia is 6.83mm (.269")


    That filler material look like styrofoam to anyone else? It is quite hard and not easilt crushed. I have see it in factory loads in heavy shot. Not sure what it is though... I've never used filler in any of my shells. Am I correct in saying that the weight of the filler has to be included in the weight of the lead shot? If so then the filler has put the load over the 1.25oz barrier...


    I can't make out what the blockage in the top barrel is. Did the wad never make it out the end of the barrel? The object in the barrel is a wad. It looks like one of the 'bad' ones I took apart.I've add 2 photos of it. It has a tall centre spike and no petals. It is covered (embedded)with filler.


    the picture of the muzzle with wad looks peculiar.do you know the barrel was clear before the bad round? We had fired the barrel about a minute earlier but all seemed fine. Nothing sounded different.


    The shell that blew the barrel, or finished it off was the only shell out of that box of reloads that was fired. All the other shells were factory SGs or my handloads. Thisbox is from an unknown source. I bought them on the understanding that they were all factory loads. I at a few boxes and unfortunately took the rest for granted as factory also. We empty them all in a bumbag(fannypack?) and pull them out as we need them . These must have all been on or close to the bottom...


    Also, thegun looks dirty, this is only red dust from the half day riding. It is VERY dusty in Western New South Wales at the moment because of drought. The guns/rifles are cleaned each night.


    Thanks for the info and leads you are giving me.
    Anthony.



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  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    REDNECK22250- I think you misread Hap's keen observation. He stated that the shallow primer indentation looks like a normal firing. But the second indentation occurred when there was excessive chamber pressure and that pressure drove the hull back into the firing pin again just before the barrel blew apart.

    Reloading with a shot buffer has been long known to be potentially dangerous.

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    In the picture of the wad stuck in the top barrel is there some type of build up or obstruction forming in the muzzle end oo the bottom barrel? It appears in the photo that some thing is there. HMB
     
  16. REDNECK22250

    REDNECK22250 TS Member

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    In the end of both barrels are the screw in chokes. They are fitted correctly but do like a bit odd.
    Anthony.
     
  17. REDNECK22250

    REDNECK22250 TS Member

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    Sorry, had another look. My mistake. I had taken out both chokes.
    Anthony
     
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