1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Blow Ups & Reloads

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Jim Porter, May 19, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jim Porter

    Jim Porter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,316
    Looking through the stuff today and had a thought--We all know K-80 are doomed to blow ups and now Guerini's with a Browning and SKB thrown in ocassionally. Then I looked at all the "who has the best reloader" entries. It made me wonder if the guns blew up because the ofending shell was loaded on a less than top line loader? Those K-80's may can tell if a shell came of something other than a Spolar. VERY INTERESTING!!!!!
     
  2. Spanky

    Spanky Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,437
    That's BS. I've been reloading on a MEC 9000 (POS to many) for years as many others. All I shoot are Brownings and an occasional Remington Trap Guns like 1000's of others. (Cheap guns to many). If a load problem is to exist in a reloader it could happen on any reloader, Lee-load-all......THRU......Spolar. If someone isn't gonna pay attention on a Lee-load-all........or .......Spolar their not gonna pay attention.

    Every barrel that blows across the country or world for that matter regardless of being a K-80, Guerini, SKB, Browning or whatever doesn't make this site. In the full schyme(?) of it all this site only has a small number. Poor steel, material quality and obstruction are probably the biggest issue overall of blown barrels. A high percentage of barrel fractures probably happen with factory ammo.

    I somewhat see what you are implying, a K-80 owner loading on a Load-All or just not a Spolar.

    Please list all less than top of the line loaders.
     
  3. KENENT1

    KENENT1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,393
    Location:
    Beloit, WI
    I think there are many times more reloads shot than factory ammo.



    tony
     
  4. Spanky

    Spanky Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,437
    Tony, I don't disagree with that. I think only a small percentage of all barrel failures come from the clay target world. The reloader(machine) or the reloader(man behind the machine), knowing your components, knowing how to read and interprate, all common sense things. Is the high dollar machine fool proof and less chance of human error. I don't know. All I do know is if you have a sequence problem (got out of sequence issue) on MEC 9000 you better be paying attention as to what's going on and put it back into sequence correctly or you may have big problems.

    Have you ever been shooting, and the guy next to you calls for a bird and all you hear is a "pink" and basically shot and a wad dribbling from the end of the barrel. My next thought before he calls again is the next shell gonna have a double charge.
     
  5. jdsfarms

    jdsfarms Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,507
    I think just the opposite when it comes to high quality loaders,I have a pacific 366 and you would have a hard time double charging a shell,after witnessing a double charged shell going off I tried to run a double charged case through it,when you get to the crimp station it will bend the case and destroy the shell,on the other hand a high quality loader like a PW supports the whole case during crimping and you can double charge a case and crimp it without deforming the case,I have seen it happen luckily the gun or shooter suffered no damage,(cheap 870 remington)Upon dismantling the rest of the shells he had loaded 2 more were double charged,the crimps looked just like the ones that had the correct charge in them.The shooter said he was removing cases during the loading process to weigh the powder charge,He was new to reloading and I am guessing that this step led to double charging the cases. Jerry
     
  6. omahasportingsupply

    omahasportingsupply TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,138
    I think we need a lot more information than we have to draw any kind of reasonable conclusions.

    I think we hear a lot more of the blow ups with expensive guns than the cheaper guns. If it is an expensive gun, I would think the manufacturer would want to examine the barrel to restore confidence in the shooting community that they were not putting out cheap barrels. Has anybody got names and phone numbers of people who have had blow ups? What did the factory find when they examined the barrel?

    Reloads vs. factory loads. Many reloaders who are top shooters are very picky about everything being just right about their shell. Many reloaders are so picky, that I would rather trust their reloaded shell than a factory shell, especially the cheaper ones. I have loaded from a Texan (they were ugly shells), MECs, Hornady, and P/W, and have found that a bad shell can come out of any loader if the person tries hard enough. Some presses do make it more difficult to screw up a shell than others, but it still can be done with most machines. Personally, I have had very few shells screw up and not one blow up of any kind. A police officer who I shoot with, recently blew up a nice Kimber. With all the precautions the Dillon press had, it still managed to happen inspite of all his safety precautions. This is a reloader who has top equipment and loads more pistol rounds per year than I will probably load in my lifetime (he loads pistol for most of his department year after year). He is still trying to figure out how it could happen.

    I think we need a lot more than a casual occurance with some evidence to start pointing fingers at a gun or press manufacturer. Other factors to consider, where the barrel was built, by whom, what steel, length, powder, published recipes by powder companies, barrel PSI, load PSI, Republican or Democratic barrel, 7 1/2s or 8s, and so on. Remember, we have proof that cars kill people everyday and we still let people drive them. Maybe we should just install airbags on certain models of trap guns. Air bags can save lives you know! Sometimes the air bag is SHOOTING the gun, ..... I usually shoot a lot higher scores than this (yeah right). Just because "it happened to me" mentality, doesn't make it a fact. <br>
    IMHO Your blown up barrel may fly farther. Omaha
     
  7. Wyogoose

    Wyogoose TS Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2009
    Messages:
    53
    I still have not seen any load resulting in CHAMBER pressure exceeding proof pressure. Every field failure I have seen has been due to muzzle obstruction resulting in a banana peel. Mid barrel obstructions all seem to result in bulges or slight cracks. Both instances have pressure and inertia involved. Somewhere on this www, there was a test with a wad pushed from the crimp out in 1/2" increments for a couple of inches. Through this test, all in the same barrel, no measurable barel damage occured. There was someone around here that WAY overloaded some shells and couldn't get more than proof pressures. I am not saying that it can not happen, but of the tests reviewed, none seem to indicate reloads being able to develop the pressures required to cause the catastophic failures discussed. Some of the the labs are estimating 2-3 times proof pressure to achieve these failures. Has anyone replicated a blowup under controlled conditions?
     
  8. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,437
    Powder detonation is the problem. HMB
     
  9. DTrykow

    DTrykow Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,543
    So what we're saying is no reloads will equal no blow-ups. Dave T.
     
  10. Savage99Stan

    Savage99Stan Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2007
    Messages:
    1,081
    I teach reloading to friends and fellow competitors. If there is one thing I preach, insist on, emphasize, obsess over, it is "follow the recipe and pay attention." If you can't go thirty minutes without a cigarette, if you can't put the booze away while you're loading, if you can't spend the money on a quality scale, if you won't match the components to the recipe, then DON'T reload......save those of us around you on the line from the unfortunate experience of having your "specials" detonate.

    If you think you're smarter than the component manufacturers, then you're too damn dumb to reload. Period.
     
  11. Spanky

    Spanky Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,437
    I don't think anyone is saying no reloads equals no blow ups. Not sure what your implying.
     
  12. samiam03

    samiam03 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2009
    Messages:
    219
    HMB you post "powder detonation" in each discussion of a barrel blowing up. I'm curious as to why you feel this is the cause. Can you describe the difference between detonation and burn? What measurement of pressure is used and how do the two pressure differences compare? Is the presence of oxygen or absence there of a component in detonation versus burn? Is compaction of the powder the difference?

    General question to all: Should barrels be x-rayed in the same manner as welds to determine integrity of the barrel? Do barrel manufactures typically do a laser surface analysis to measure barrel consistency?

    It's difficult to believe that reloads or obstructions are always the problem.

    Sam
     
  13. Jollytrapshooter

    Jollytrapshooter Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2006
    Messages:
    881
    I'm still going to stick with the theory of metal fatigue. You shoot so many rounds through a gun, and eventually the metal around the chamber would expand and contract enough that it will fail. The reason we HEAR about so many K-80's blowing up is; 1: people who shoot them, shoot them A LOT, and 2: they have what seem to be really thin mono-blocks. You could maybe even throw in reloader pushing the pressures on their handicap loads (over thousands of rounds). Otherwise, a barrel obstruction wouldn't cause what most blow ups that are posted on here show. In the pictures I've seen posted before, the chamber has been split open, and the split stops where the mono-block stops. Maybe someone has a different explanation for this? It seems to be what makes the most sense to me.

    Also, Bruce Bowen did multiple tests concerning this topic. He did the double charge, the 20 gauge shell in the forcing cone, the wad in the barrel, and countless other things that could happen and even NOT happen unless you deliberately did it. But then again, we're just beating a dead horse because nobody can ever agree on a single explanation...We'll never agree...My 2 cents, Josh.
     
  14. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,437
    Sam,

    The difference between powder burn and powder detonation is the creation of a shock wave when there is detonation.

    One reason I mention detonation when we talk about gun blowups is because when you are present when a gun blows up it sounds and looks like a bomb going off.

    You ask some interesting questions which might contribute to possible powder detonation. One being a light load of a slow burning ball powder contributing to the possibility of a detonation. HMB
     
  15. samiam03

    samiam03 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2009
    Messages:
    219
    I'm thinking that a thermal image of a barrel after firing a set number of known consistant rounds would tell us all volumes.

    Neil: Are you following this topic?
     
  16. 22hornet

    22hornet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2007
    Messages:
    1,461
    Location:
    Hanford, CA
    Nice catch, Porter!
     
  17. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,753
    samiam03 , hmb is shooting blanks, nothing there but noise. If shotgun shells could actually detonate trap fields would be littered with bodies.
     
  18. wireguy

    wireguy TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,715
    What about a cocked wad with the over-powder seal cocked and the powder lying loose in a much larger area than normal, not compacted............BUT, the front part of the wad, under the shot, is relatively straight and still sealing the hull, with the weight of the shot on top of it. The primer ignites the loose powder that is still sealed by the under-shot seal, the loose powder detonates rather than burning with a smooth flame front, and there's an ounce or more of dead lead sitting atop a pressure seal trying to contain it. BOOM.
     
  19. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,437
    Something is causing it to detonate, maybe someday we will find out why. Being in a state of denial will not bring us any closer to the solution. HMB
     
  20. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,854
    samiam03, yes I am following this, as I have the dozen or so others over the years and, in the words of Omar of Naishapur, "evermore Came out by the same Door as in I went."

    It's because no one here has even asked, as far as I know, how one would go about solving the problem in an organized manner. Now I assume it has been solved many times but the results haven't "made the papers."

    Were I a defendant in a big-buck lawsuit, this it the sort of thing I'd like to know and these are the sort of tests I would sponsor, at least as a first run, to find out.

    How much pressure is "available" in, say, 18 grains of Red Dot? For this you'd need a plenty-strong "bomb" which would confine the powder to a space about similar in size and shape to a shell, a primer, and a piezo-transducer for high pressure. Light it off and measure what the absolute max average pressure is, and figure that's all you are working with if everything is going according to plan.

    Do the same in an ultra short chamber so you can have a powder chamber and a wad whose open end is totally blocked by a big steel rod. It's the same sort of high-pressure vessel otherwise, and this tells you the max absolute pressure when a shell is assembled but the shot can't go anywhere.

    I'd do this with at least a couple of powders, one like Red Dot, one like Long Shot, just to see what the differences are, if any.

    I've no idea what the results would be, but they would put an upper limit on what a correctly-loaded shells could do. At least we'd have a place to start and can see whether we can put half the theories to bed before we begin.

    Then I'd pull a book called "Firearms Pressure Factors" off the shelf and study the three or so chapters on EPE's, extreme pressure excursions. This is the "half loaded" rifle-shell stuff and while I thought on first reading the book pretty-much dismissed it, a second glance made me think I'd gotten it wrong. So I'd study that, as well as the tests done to reproduce it in the lab which, as I recall, has never happened. I'd go though Hatcher's Notebook too, since though I remember his accident analysis concentrated an poor heat-treatment (too brittle) of Springfield '03's there's always something in that book to pay attention to.

    Last, I'd re-read the Scientific American article on detonation, the one I promised to Pat many years ago and which is on my floor to the right-rear and which may yet make it into the mail, having surfaced once again like a stone in an over-winter field.

    When I get back from the Great Lakes Grand I'll do all of those things and have more to say.

    Neil
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.