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Bird/Bead Relationship

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by phirel, Apr 11, 2007.

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  1. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Several threads contain good posts describing how some shooters try to float the bird above the beads at singles and cover the bird with the bead when shooting handicap, or some variation of this pattern. My style of shooting is almost backward from these techniques.

    I do look at my front bead, then change my focus to the house and call for the bird. I try to look at the bird and just let my gun shoot. I am vaguely aware of the bird/bead relationship but I certainly do not try to place the bead on, below or over the bird. This just naturally happens. If I consciously try to establish a bird/bead relationship with my body and brain, things do not work well. If I just let my body/brain/gun do their natural thing, I can break a few birds.

    Pat Ireland
     
  2. Beretta687EELL

    Beretta687EELL Well-Known Member

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    Same here Pat. Bill Malcolm
     
  3. Big Az Al

    Big Az Al Well-Known Member

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    I like all of what ya all have to say.

    When my eye drifts back to the beed after I call pull, the score keeper calls, >>>>LOST, every darn time!

    To get my rythem it is, foot position, exhale as much air as possible, start to inhale and begin gun mount at same time, do a does the gun feel right' beed check' position check, start to exhale raise focus to three to four feet over trap, slight pause, Pulllllllllllllllll.... bang and if I can get this all done my scores are pretty good.

    Al
     
  4. bigben

    bigben Active Member

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    Pat, you're not doing it backward, but a lot of the "barrel floaters" are, if they are indeed floating the bird, that's contrary to any really good shooting,as that requires a conscious effort, that portion of the brain can do 2 things at one time, in shooting they see the target, move over to it-1 then they try to measure it-2 to shoot the target they have to pull the trigger, to do so the barrel movement stops-pull the trigger, -LOST ! the barrel must be aggressively driven into the target to get consistant results, there is no time to measure, float , think, bead watch etc. if you do, more often than not the word LOST will be heard, many many of the top shooters shoot very high impacting guns and they do not "float", I can assure you of that,many marvel at the blinding speed that some of the targets are taken, no time for "floating", all the best! incinerate em!
     
  5. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Are not high shooting handicap guns a result of "sight picture"? I do not "try" to put the bead on the bird, but I think my required 100%+ pattern is a result of floating the target so I can best see the bird. I do see the bead, but it is a perifferal ( where's my spell check) or "soft focus" thing. My pattern POI is a requirement of my shooting style that happens naturally.

    I've heard time and time again "you don't even need a bead", Well try shooting long yardage at night, and see how you do w/o a bead for reference.

    One eye and two eye shooters tend to differ in their POI.
     
  6. JB Logan Co. Ohio

    JB Logan Co. Ohio TS Member

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    Not that anyone should do as I do but at the beginning of a station I try to place my feet in "position", mount the gun and place the beads in a modified figure 8, which for me the mid bead about half way into the front bead with virtually no rib showing, focus out to where the bird will appear and call for the target. The movement to the bird is where I get fuzzy as to what I do. I can't consciously keep track of where the beads are but if I don't move my head the "line" of eye (yes, I'm a one-eyed shooter) beads and point of impact are a solid line. I pull the trigger when I think I should and hopefully I see many pieces. If I deviate from this recipie (sp) I am not happy with my result.

    JB=Jerry Beach 8503917
     
  7. idoc

    idoc Member

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    Pat, As a eye doctor/shooter I feel as though you are right on. In fact, you have put your gun on paper and you know where it shoots - there is no reason to look down that barrel ever! The more you can consciously stay away from the barrel the better. The barrel-bird relationship should be completely up to the subconscious. We get into trouble when the conscious takes over (which it loves to do). The important thing with the eyes is to "Let" it happen. Don't try to "Make" it happen.........................Rich
     
  8. birdogs

    birdogs TS Member

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    Phil Kiner blacked out my beads with a Magic Marker several years ago. I now carry a Dry Erase black marker in my vest and touch it up from time to time. Since it can be wiped off with a finger it is anything but permanent but with the beads blacked out I can't see them at all. I must look only at the target and concentrate on it not the beads. Like Pat, I am vaguely aware of the bird/bead relationship but I know if I am centered as soon as the gun goes off.

    Thanks Phil for that tip and so many others.
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    My attention is drawn to another comment made in two of the above posts about foot position. I walk to the next post, look at the trap and my feet just go into the position they seem to like. I do not think about getting my feet into the proper position, my feet do it for me and they do a better job than the thinking part of my brain. I have shot many registered targets and this and this may have trained my feet.

    I want to think about not thinking so much about the game.

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. oilburner

    oilburner TS Member

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    Gentlemen,
    This is a great tread, and I hope it continues so many can benefit from it. I am a new trapshooter, having just started about 8 months ago. Over this time I have been confused as to how to shoot. People come up to me and say "bury the bird with the barrel", put the bead on the bird", float the bird on the bead", "aim at the leading edge of the bird", etc. Others say "take the beads off of your gun", don't look at the beads after you set up with them stacked in a figure 8", "you don't aim with a shotgun, just go aggressively to the bird with your eyes", etc. No wonder I'm a nutcase and don't know what to do. Recently I have been mounting the gun, checking bead alignment,looking about 16 yards out into the field, calling for the bird, aquiring it with my eyes, going to the bird with my gun-without looking at the bead or barrel, and when I feel that I'm on the bird, pull the trigger. What's spooky is that this smokes targets better than when I was aiming with the bead. I do not plan to go back to aiming as one would with a rifle, but would appreciate any further input that could help me shoot better with this "blackmagic", but very effective approach to busting targets.
    Thanks
     
  11. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Oilburner, There is alot of "misguiding" information on this site, but this thread so far has great info. by some experienced shooters. As you may have figured out, there are alot of successful styles of shooting. If everyone would post their averages when they comment, you would know who to listen to, but that ain't gonna happen. The main thing is to be consistant and direct your focus on the target, and practice, practice, practice, till it's burned into your brain and muscle memory.

    Oh ya.....keep your head down.
     
  12. Tom Strunk

    Tom Strunk Well-Known Member

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    It' real simple -- you can't hit the nail when you are looking at the hammer.

    Your barrel should just be a ghost figure that a two eyed shooter can look thru. Compare the barrel to the hood of your car, you are driving down a real bumpy road, you are looking out for the bumps but you know where the hood is.

    Tom Strunk
     
  13. hawk57

    hawk57 TS Member

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    I applaud you all for your honest and informative input. I have asked questions on this site regarding beads, mount, focus, etc and never received information that was as clear as what was stated in this thread. I’m a fairly new trap shooter (6 month’s now) and visit this site everyday seeking knowledge. I’ve found that I have improved in my abilities to “smoke" them due to the knowledge gained from the sites contributors, more so than any “old timer” at the club. One thing I have noticed with regards to advice given by some of the more experienced shooters. How you perceive things and what’s important to you depends on where you are in your trap shooting career and will determine what advice you give some one. I think it’s a good idea when giving advice that you pay attention to where the guy asking the question is in his trap shooting career. Think back to when you were at that stage and give the advice that is appropriate for someone at that stage. Someone with 1,000 birds under their belt probably seeks different knowledge than someone with 100,000 birds.

    Hawk,
     
  14. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Tom, I must be looking at my hood ornament too hard. Missed 3 cats this week.

    Good camparison.
     
  15. Jon Reitz

    Jon Reitz Well-Known Member

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    Good thread. Birdogs mentioned above that he carries a dry erase black marker to black out his beads with. I do the same (front bead only though). Before I started doing that I would catch myself bead-checking so badly that my front bead looked like a big white beachball that I couldn't take my eyes (hard focus) off! Obviously my chase to the bird and scores were not good. The dry erase marker definitely helped with that. God, I hate this game...
     
  16. Tom Strunk

    Tom Strunk Well-Known Member

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    Setterman --

    Now that's funny - I was rollin on the floor laughing.

    With a sign on name like that, I figure you must be a bird dog man. Is your name Dez Young?

    I've got five bird dogs myself.I hunt birds from September in Montana to Kansas in November to quail in my home state of Arizona thru early Febuary. Ah the good life.

    Tom Strunk
     
  17. dward

    dward Member

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    I thought the world had stopped turning a while back when Sir Winston advised a shooter not to aim and to just look at the bird and let his instincts work. I ran into Neil at the club last week and he said although he can use either method (aim or point) he has finally concluded that he has won more trophies by pointing.

    I mention this to reinforce that we all agree that focusing hard on the target and allowing muscle memory to work is the most productive way to shoot. But to do this you must COMPLETELY trust that your gun will shoot where your eyes are focused. If you think you are focused on the target and you miss, you either aren't focused on the target or your mechanics are wrong. A video tape or a good coach can identify mechanical/visible problems.

    I can shoot good scores occasionally, but to be honest when I evaluate how many targets I really focused hard and properly on, even when I shoot straights, it's probably only about 50%. So to me it's not a question of whether I should focus exclusively on the target, the question becomes what is keeping me from doing it when I know to do it, and tell myself to do it on every target.

    In short it is the fear of missing that makes us default to what we think is safe, and what we think is safe is what we have done the most. In my case I learned how to shoot by aiming and instead of completely trusting my gun will shoot where I am focused my mind occasionally wants to see the whole picture to make sure the gun gets to the right spot.

    I think one needs to first get good coaching to make sure ones mechanics are sound, and the sooner the better. After that it's important to define what practice really is. In golf, to practice a player goes to the driving range where he doesn't care about bad shots. In fact I will try to hit a big slice or a duck hook just to get a feel for what the "wrong" swing feels like. In shooting I believe the longer you have done something wrong the harder it is to correct. And when the change is made it will feel very different and if we are under pressure we will revert back to the "wrong" way. I think it is important that "practice" allows us to do things that we feel uncomfortable doing. This won't happen when shooting for score. Go out alone, and lock the trap and shoot angles or straights or what ever you want to work on, but make sure you put yourself in a situation that allows you to do it differently.

    In short, if we do what we always have done, we'll get what we always have got.

    Now I'm off to my therapist - Dan
     
  18. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    When the bird breaks and my head is on the stock I can see, and do see the bird bead relationship. If only for an instant. I do not see the bead during the assult on the bird. I only see the target. However, if everthing is going right, my brain will put the bead just under the bird on the 16 and right on or ahead in an straght line with the angle on the 27. If I do not see that relationship (bead/bird) at the moment of impact I can tell at once what I did wrong (mostly lifting my head a fraction). That's why beads are on shotguns!!! That's why the bright "High Vis" types of beads are so popular.
     
  19. hawk57

    hawk57 TS Member

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    I've only got about 2000 birds called so far. Things are just starting to come toghether for me. I was shooting in the upper teens out of 25 for the first 5 month's. This past month I've jumped up to low 20's after discovering primarily 2 mistakes I was making, one not keeping my cheek firmly in the stock at all times (head lifting) and not leading the hard rights from 5 enough.

    Thanks,
    Hawk
     
  20. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    So far, the word (peripheral vision) has been rarely used, in this process for some reason? For shotgunning, it's an important word that some use to describe as "sub-conscience" shooting. I have to respectfully disagree with that statement since I truly believe lead is a conscience eye reference move to attain! It is very important to keep your eye on a moving target! Why? Because without doing so, you'll lose the ability to make that bird/bead/barrel end relationship necessary to make the shot and target coincide at the proper time! To take that look a step farther, instead of looking at just the whole bird, look intently at the leading edge of the direction its traveling? Extreme lefts and rights, I call that leading edge spot for a left, a 10 o:clock spot, a right a 2 o:clock spot. Try finding that tiny little spot instead of looking at the whole target, that look takes practice too. That's why some of the old pheasant hunters always said, "look at the ring" around a roosters neck, not at the quivering tail or the whole bird? Same thing with any flying object my friends!! Math says for the two to intersect, one must be in front regardless of how we interpret it getting there.

    Phil Kiner is one of the best shooters in the world and his word is gospel, period. What possibly is his reasons for blanking out the beads on a shotgun for some shooters? My thought, is to prevent a shooter from looking back at that bead or attempting to measure the distance in front of said bird. As someone said above, stand in the darkness and try shooting targets without having the ability to see your beads or barrel end clearly! See how that works out for you?

    Holding under? For me it's much easier to (point) my leading finger directly AT a moving object rather than relying on how much to hold under. (I used to shoot like that too) Springing teal comes to mind for references, that bird is going almost straight up? With wind at your back or shooting in a severe head wind in trap? Is there more or less hold under for each of those two scenarios? I like the point at at it method most, it's easier to make the proper bird/bead relationship there for me. If targets were always perfect, the hold under could be ingrained in the computer, but, it will take a lot of input on perfect settings! That's a lot of shooting too! I like to keep my shooting methods in terms I can relate to for recall, easier to know when things go wrong and easier to see. I have no control over my sub-conscience but I can see lead peripherally! Hap
     
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