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Best Instruction on Hold Points

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by joe kuhn, May 2, 2009.

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  1. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    The rule about instruction is you must vary only what you want the student to pay attention to.

    Jim Forsbach and editor Whiz White have done just that on hold points for your gun and eyes.

    As you scroll down through the photos, the lane doesn't change position in the frame, just the important stuff changes. The green dot is for gun hold, the oval is for your eyes.

    Now if they'd put in some foot prints perpendicular to the left most target arrow, it would teach even more.

    Excellent.
     
  2. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    What are we looking at, a 27 yard shot, or something else?
     
  3. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    shot410ga

    "What are we looking at, a 27 yard shot, or something else?"

    Do you think they will be different at 16 than 27 if not why do you ask if so you need to study a little more.

    Bob Lawless
     
  4. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Everyone is unique in combining their abilities to get the gun to where it needs to be on each target presentation. While it is important to have starting points, each shooter should make a personal journey of learning to establish what works best for him.

    By example, for me as a one eye shooter, angle shots got really easy as soon as I started holding outside the house on 1 & 5 and outside the back corners on 2 & 4.

    Do not be afraid of going against conventional wisdom to try new techniques. That is what practice is for.
     
  5. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    I like it, LEFTY version please. I think things like this are good. I still like the old remington fundamentals of trap shooting poster. great starting point.
     
  6. Chris

    Chris TS Member

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    Click on the above!


    http://www.remington.com/pdfs/trap_fundamentals_2004.pdf


    Chris
     
  7. CharlesK80

    CharlesK80 Member

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    Why am I not surprised JB shoots with only one eye open? He still does not know anything about politics, but correctly describes popular hold points for both 1 and 2 eyed shooters.

    However, the above diagrams show something else re gun hold points and are worth looking into.
     
  8. ric3677

    ric3677 Well-Known Member

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    Tucson......I have shot that trap before.....LOL

    Rick in Mt.
     
  9. canada

    canada Member

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    All due respect to Jim Forsbach, but I don't think you should hold outside the house on post 5. The reason being is that you will cut off angle targets as a result. I like the hold point on post 1, and think it should be mirrored on post 5.

    Bob Lawless, there is nothing wrong with changing your hold point in handicap. I hold lower in handicap because there is less gun movement.

    Pat Lamont
     
  10. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    canada

    "Bob Lawless, there is nothing wrong with changing your hold point in handicap. I hold lower in handicap because there is less gun movement"

    Are you sure or does it just appear to be a lower hold because of the greater distance from the traphouse?

    Bob Lawless
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I agree with Pat Lamont, and disagree with some of the hold points illustrated by Jim Forsbach. I would never recommend holding outside of the trap house corners. Also, if you look at the suggested hold point from post five for the first shot of doubles, you can see a serious problem. The problem is the doubles target flight diagram (solid line) is incorrect.

    MY hold points (may not be good for you) are a result of my body position on the post. I bring my gun up naturally without shifting my body. On post 1, if my gun comes up 1.5 feet inside the left corner of the house (I want it to be about 6 inches inside the left corner) I call for the bird and shoot. Before the next shot, I move my feet just a little so the gun will come up correctly the next time. I never bring my gun up and then move it to a predetermined hold point.

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Pat, I don't see any mention of the first shot of doubles. I assumed this was for singles only.

    Surely there is a phase 2 in this instruction where the new shooter adjusts for his stance as Pat describes and other issues as well. But we must get the shooter started somewhere.

    My own gun hold point on position 2 varies from what is shown. In the end, what needs to be done is to "Use a position that allows YOU to best lock onto a clay as it clears the roofline." This is from my own coach, which I believe is correct. The context needs to be - what's it going to take for you to see that target quickly and clearly so the process can go on from there?

    Joe
     
  13. Play Dead

    Play Dead Member

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    I find the photograhic presentation in this instruction to be more useful than cartoons or drawings. For me, it has also been problematic to hold outside the corners on post one and post five. I tried it for a few months recently after taking a class from an All American who suggested holding slightly off of the corners on post one and post five.

    What I learned was that while the angle targets became easier to acquire visually, the width of my personal field of vision did not allow me to see the straight away target clearly from posts one and five with the gun hold just slightly off of the corner. By adjusting the gun hold to just slightly inside the corners of the house, that problem has been solved. I still can acquire the angle target and now also see the straight aways. This was an incredibly subtle adjustment, perhaps only one bead-width off the corner to one bead-width inside the corner. It made all the difference to facilitate the visual acquisition of each target from post one and post five. This I believe, is depicted in the photographs of the presentation. The oval drawn for visual focus area does not always intersect the flight path of both the extreme angle and straight away, and depending on the individual, it may be difficult to acquire both of these targets with the hold point that is recommended.

    As mentioned by many, hold point suggestions are a starting point that work well in ideal situations for any particular author or teacher. But we all have abilities and tendencies that prohibit another's "best know method" from working for us. We need to determine the root cause of why something doesn't work, then carefully make subtle adjustments to develop our own personal "best known methods". Practice!

    Play Dead
     
  14. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Jim's layout is way more suited to todays target angles and speed than the old Remington suggestions as a modified beginning for new shooters. The Remington diagram is for greater angles and faster thrown 44 degree plus targets.

    How do you get a true straight away target from stations 1 and 5 if targets are set according to ATA rule suggestions with 34 degree angles or even slightly less angle? You'd have to move about 3 feet either right on 1 or left off 5 to see a true straight away? The best shooters in the game know how to read an angle, when one is presented and how to handle it. A lot of us use the poke n hope method.

    Hap
     
  15. abiezer

    abiezer Guest

    The green dot (gun hold) inside the ellipse (visual window) is not completely accurate,
    as it doesn't show the blind spot produced by the gun.
    See:
    http://www.ospschool.com/strategyvideo.html
     
  16. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    One thing that helps me when holding off the corners is that I look into the center of the house, right at the roof line, rather than gaze off into the distance. This helps me pickup the target just as it emerges and helps keep me from cutting off the lesser angles. It also takes practice to move the gun with the lesser angles rather than just intersect them.

    However, making the hard angles easy is a great trade off for making the lesser angles a little harder.

    And, whiles Charles may shoot one eye closed, his politics are two eye closed. LOL
     
  17. Tom Strunk

    Tom Strunk Well-Known Member

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    As a two eyed shooter I have evolved, with lots of practice, to where my hold points are about the same as Pat Lamonts, except for post one, where I hold for the straightaway. Never outside of the house with the gun.

    Tom Strunk
     
  18. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    ivanhoe: Bob, I suspect I would take all your money, if you've got any.
     
  19. rick979

    rick979 Active Member

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    Let me throw one out there for 'ya. It might be more important as to where you "send your eyes" than where you "park" your gun. Send your eyes to the place where the target will rise from the house, keep the target IN FOCUS and your barrel will chase the target down. Then it just a matter of "trigger control". That's my take.
     
  20. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    That's a good point there Rick. I believe the core instructional piece is still missing. Tracking the target early and accurately, and keeping it in FOCUS, as you say, is vital. On the line, what should we do with a first timer to make this happen? That's where all this will end up. On the line, with a new shooter, his gun and a target moving away at a good rate of speed. What should we do?

    Thanks,
    Joe
     
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