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Best formula for 28/.410 Win reloads..pressure???

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by StansCustoms, May 30, 2012.

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  1. StansCustoms

    StansCustoms Well-Known Member

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    I thought would get an order in before the deadline this morning for delivery tomorrow at our gun club...loading supplies that is.

    I'm ordering materials for loading the late model Winchester hulls in a 28 and .410 gauge. (Haven't loaded anything but 12 gauge and that was over 22 years ago.)

    When I started trying to decipher the loading info out there ..I went to overload...tooo much information to make a decision.

    I don't under the importance of the different pressures...and mostly how to choose a load that has the most desirable pressure....especially for the new style Winchester AA hulls.

    I think back in the day I used all Winchester components and Red Dot powder...(not sure about that even).

    I want a good load that I won't feel any mental pressure over having not used top quality components ...but don't want to burn $$$ for no reason either.

    Can someone explain the presure thing to me and how it affects the loads...and please share your opinion on a proper load for todays components...I'm running out of time, and it'll be two weeks before our next wholesale delvery.

    Not really a big deal I guess....I can wait rather than get a bunch of wrong stuff...I'm really needing some experienced input here.

    Best regards ...Stan Mayfield
     
  2. mag410

    mag410 Active Member

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    Neophyte .410 loaders should stick with Winchester wads and hulls.

    Use Magnum #9 shot.

    The theory is that the lower the pressure the lower the deformation of the shot which will result in better patterns. Winchester and Remington factory are both quite a bit faster than the nominal 1200 fps skeet loads, and unless the factory has some kind of magic powder are at the upper limit of pressure, but still pattern well.

    HS410: HS410 wad, Winchester 296 or Hagdon H110, which are the same powder, magnum shot.

    HS28: I have not loaded any yet, still loading old-style. I would use whatever powder and wad Winchester recommends.

    After you have some experience with the small shells, you can try some of the other stuff.

    I have loaded many thousands W296 .410's and I have broken several 100's with 296 reloads and see no reason to experiment.

    My personal favorite in AA28 hulls is Green Dot, mainly as there used to be some loads with GD in the AA20, so I could use it in both gauges.

    Slow and easy with the .410, they can be very finicky to load especially on progressive machines.

    Michael Goines
     
  3. JPM

    JPM Member

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    I'd recommend that you look at the Alliant reloading data for their Pro Reach powder for your 28 ga shells. I've gone to this powder simply because of the reduced pressures that it produces and I've been entirely satisfied with the performance of the loads that I have prepared. Four different friends have shot these shells of mine and have said that they were at least equal to what they were reloading. JPM
     
  4. notarget

    notarget TS Member

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    I can't tell you much about the .410 but I load and shoot approximately 10,000 28's per year. I recommend the load listed in The Alliant manual for the AAHS hull, 2028 powder,and Claybuster 5034 wad.
     
  5. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

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    "The theory is that the lower the pressure the lower the deformation of the shot which will result in better patterns"

    This is not a theory in shotshell performance. Jeff
     
  6. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    If you get genuine Winchester HS wads, the bag has loading data printed on it. These loads work well and you will not be able to do much better. Use exactly as printed right down to the primer specification.

    For powders, WW296 which is the same as H110 is a great .410 powder.

    I like Hogdon Universal in the 28 but there are others.

    Do yourself a favor and stick with the HS hulls in both gauges and don't try mixing other brands in your hull batches.

    Both the .410 and the 28 normally operate at considerably higher pressure than a normal 12 guage trap load. This is okay and necessary - just follow the loading data verbatim and you will have good results.
     
  7. StansCustoms

    StansCustoms Well-Known Member

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    Mag .410...

    Neophyte loader...yep that's me...lol. Definitely not something that I've been called before...heh!

    You said use magnum shot...I was under the impression chilled shot opened up a little faster and was slightly better suited for skeet because of the wider pattern. yes/no? I guess a more uniform pattern is the primary objective then?

    However I definitely use Magnum shot when shooting trap with a .410 or 28 gauge...(only kidding..heh heh!)

    Subgauge Winchester AA Target shells say 1200 fps on the box? Are they faster than advertised...?

    I was really trying to get all my reloads in every gauge to all be 1200 fps ...regardless of shot or gauge. A mental thing I suppose..

    Do you recommend #9's in the 28 gauge as well...,.410 for sure, but I have been using #8's in 28 gauge Winchester factory loads... and in 12 gauge Winchester trap loads. I had planned to buy one size lead for everything but .410. if that's a good idea. I would like to buy one type of powder for everything , if thats possible too.

    The simplier the better for this Neophyte loader...lol!


    Thanks and best regards...Stan
     
  8. StansCustoms

    StansCustoms Well-Known Member

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    Wolfram..

    Since I need to order everything from scratch...do you know what loading data is in a bag of genuine Winchester HS wads?

    Subgauge loads have more presure than 12 gauge trap loads...really? I didn't know that...I saw a formula with the 28 gauge load pressure as low as 9,800 psi. for a 1200 fps load.

    Thanks...Stan
     
  9. StansCustoms

    StansCustoms Well-Known Member

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    Thanks notarget..

    Wow! That's a lot of 28 gauge shooting. What velocity are your loads?

    Thanks..Stan
     
  10. Pull & Mark

    Pull & Mark Well-Known Member

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    Stan, You picked the best hull to load for the two small bores first off, and because your using Win. hulls I will suggest that you use Win. primers as well. As you become more of a reloader we can talk more about primers later if you wish to keep costs even more. Next I would use a Claybuster (copy/Clone)of the Winchester AA wads. They are half the price of the genuine Win. wads with no added benefit. as far as shot goes, you are correct in that chilled shot will open abit faster than magnum shot will, but the top shells all have magnum shot in them. So that leaves just the powder to talk about. Firts there is no powder made that will load both of those gauges. There are 410 only powders and powders that work well in both the 20 and 28 gauges, most of these will not work in the 12 gauge. I too suggest that you use only Win. 296, or the slightly cheaper Hodgdon H110 powder. Now for the 28 gauge I like to use Hodgdon's Universal Clays powder, but many still use Unique or the newer 20/28 powder. I have now tried the new 20/28 powder and it works fine, but I get blowback in the reciever around the breach face and the barrels are slightly dirtier than Universal Clays powder. I have not tried the Unique, but it is popular with the old time shooters as its been around a long time. I agree that 1200 fps is the best for all 4 gauges as you will not have to worry about any differences in anything. Look up the loads at Alliantpowder.com or Hodgdon.com on their own websites and then you can see the loads you want with the components you want to use and get the lowest pressures are well. You will need to get a scale and check all your powder drops as you need to drop your powder very, very close on these little loads. Good Luck and break em all Jeff
     
  11. skeeljc

    skeeljc Supporting Vendor Supporting Vendor

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    I load somewhere around 7000 .410's per year. Here is what I use:

    Winchester HS hulls<BR>
    Hodgdon H110 Powder (same as Winchester 296)<BR>
    Remington SP-410 wads<BR>
    Winchester or Cheddite primers

    The Remington wads stay seated in the hull when the wad ram retracts. The wad petals stay open so you do not get folded over petals. The wad is the critical component when loading .410's on a progressive loader.

    My standard Skeet load is 15.3 grains of H110 for 1220 fps and 8500 psi. Hull life with H110 is good - usually 6-7 reloads.

    You can go up to 17 grains of H110 if you want a 1300 fps load for Sporting Clays.

    Jim Skeel<BR>
    P/W Dealer/Distributor
     
  12. StansCustoms

    StansCustoms Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the input Jeff..

    I bought a like new digital scale at a swap meet a few days ago. It came from Cabellas, the owner bought it new and just quit reloading.

    Ok..to summarize so far...general opinions.


    Winchester Primers, Claybuster Wads, Magnum shot, and Powder as recommended by mfg., with the least pressure, to achieve velocity desired. (So far Win 296/ H110 powder seems to be the favored for .410)

    Anyone disagree with this so far?

    I saw a low pressure load using Longshot powder... 9,800 psi vs 12,200 psi using Universal powder. No one has mentioned Longshot powder..is it a dirty burning powder, or other shortcommings?

    ....and thanks everyone for the help so far...

    Best regards...Stan
     
  13. mag410

    mag410 Active Member

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    Generally speaking the lower the pressure the better, but high/higher pressure is unavoidable with the smaller gauges. There is much to argue about how much pressure is too much and how much is too little and what affect it has on patterns. I have spent enough time at the patterning board to know that Magnum 9’s pattern better than chilled 9’s in the .410. In the other gauges there is so much shot it really does not matter, but I still use Magnum 9’s in the 20 and 28 ga mostly so I only have one type around, and it usually only cost 50 cents more a bag anyway.


    I would only load Magnum 9’s in the .410. You only have ½ oz of shot, so 9’s fill the pattern better. Magnum 9’s are harder and since you are operating at a higher pressure and since .410 wads don’t have any cushioning section they are less likely to deform. An added benefit of Magnum nines is that they are less dense and you get a few more pellets in a weighed ½ oz, of course to take advantage of this you either have to use an adjustable bar or drill out the bar to drop a true ½ oz.

    I would stick with the HS .410 wad, H110/W296 and Winchester 209 primers. The .410 can be very finicky to load. Although I have not used the Ciaybuster clone recommended above, I have had mixed results with clone .410 wads in the past. There seems to be a common misconception that it is “normal” to have an occasional “off” sounding .410 shell from time to time, and they are only ok for practice. This is not true. Carefully constructed .410’s are every bit as good as factory shells. A friend of mine won the NSSA World Championship with his .410 reloads.

    After you have loaded for a while and are confident that your reloading recipe works well then by all means try some clones. If you get the same performance, fine, but if your normally good loads start sounding “off”, you know where to look.

    Winchester and Remington factory loads are “hot”, Remington started the madness, they started loading the NSSA maximum 228 grains of shot and added velocity so the shells had some “pop” and Winchester followed suit to compete. They both clock well over 1300 fps over the chronograph. .410’s usually clock faster than the specified speed but not 150-175 fps faster. Older AA’s ran 1240-1260 fps. I quit shooting factory loads when Winchester brought out the silver-lettered Max’s. They do pattern well, but I don’t like the difference in muzzle speed compared to the larger gauges.

    8’s sometimes don’t meter well through the small drop tubes on .410 loaders. You can get by with 8’s in the 28 gauge, I have shot a bunch of my left over 28 gauge #8 dove loads in practice and couldn’t really tell any difference.

    I have heard nothing but positive things about Aliant 20/28 but I have not loaded any.

    Michael
     
  14. StansCustoms

    StansCustoms Well-Known Member

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    Skeeljc..

    I must have been pecking out my post when you put yours in...just now saw it.

    I see that you have good luck with Remington wads, and why, thanks for that. I didn't know that wads were more critical on the .410 than other gauges.

    Also the pressure is the lowest I have seen at 8500 psi...that's a good thing..!

    I've been looking mostly 28 gauge loads...since I don't have many .410 hulls yet...so I may have overlooked the data on .410's

    thanks for the help.

    Best regards..Stan...
     
  15. StansCustoms

    StansCustoms Well-Known Member

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    Mag410..Michael

    Same as with Skeeljc, I was pecking out the above post when you posted yours I guess.

    Thanks very much for the good information. I had no notion of the faster velocities on factory loads...bummer. That means my planned reloads would be slower than the factory stuff.

    I planned on #9 shot for the .410 for sure...but have used 8's in the 28 gauge a lot.

    With the Magnum shot could one expect about the same amount of energy with Magnum 9's as with factory Target AA 8's? Hmmm..maybe not? Don't Factory loads have Magnum shot too... I guess bigger shot size has more to do with energy than antimony(spelling?)..correct?

    ...and contribites to longer shots? Like Sporting Clays..etc? ...or will 9's do the same job in Magnum shot as 8's?

    Thanks..Stan
     
  16. mag410

    mag410 Active Member

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    Stan,

    After a point we are dealing in minutia.

    Yes, AA & STS factory loads use magnum shot, probably with a higher antimony content than bagged shot. This gets the pellet count up for a denser pattern. All things being equal an 8 will have more energy than a 9, but 9's have enough energy to break a clay target at skeet distance ~25 yards. So why give up to pellet count? A Magnum 9 will have slightly less energy than a soft 9, but then again it still has enough energy to break a skeet target.

    Does the difference in muzzle speed on factory .410's really matter? It does to me because I think it does. It doesn't seem to bother the All-Americans who shoot well with them. There are recipes to match the muzzle speed of factory loads.

    Michael
     
  17. SevenMaryThree

    SevenMaryThree Member

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    I shoot about 5,000 28 ga. reloads per year, and another 7-8000 at doves in Argentina.

    I use Universal as a propellant and like everything about it except the price. I may try 20/28 when I run out of Universal. I started out using Longshot...I did not like the filth, the noise, or the patterns. It should be called "Loudshot."

    Count me in the magnum shot camp...the differences in patterns in the little high pressure guns is stark between chilled and hard shot in my experiences at the patterning plate. When I shoot new I buy Super Sport #7.5s and they crush the targets. When I roll my own I use magnum #8.5s and they do well also.

    The best way to get hull stock, IMO, is to buy five flats of new AA Super Sports during the rebate. Then you have a stock of new shells for registered events and a source of hulls for your practice reloads.
     
  18. StansCustoms

    StansCustoms Well-Known Member

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    SevenMaryThree..

    Thanks for the report on Longshot...loud and dirty...dirty is especially annoying to me.

    ...and for the report regarding the stark differences in patterning chilled vs Mag shot..

    Super Sport #7.5's huh? I may have to try that out..never occurred to me.

    ...And yep...I have already ordered 10 flats or so since the rebate started, so I have plenty of 28 gauge hulls.

    I'don't have many .410 hulls yet to speak of...and am running a thread offering to trade some 28 gauge hulls for .410 hulls if someone has more than they need (like I do in 28 gauge). Had a STS offer...but want to stick with Win AA's.

    best regards...Stan
     
  19. Pull & Mark

    Pull & Mark Well-Known Member

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    Stan, I'd try the 20/28 powder with the pressure at l0,580 with the Claybuster wad. It was only slightly dirtier than the Universal Clays I use with my 28 ga. loads. I do use the old style compression formed hulls and this keeps my loads around the middle of the 10,000 psi if my memory is correct with the Universal. I don't like to go over ll,000 psi. The 410 load with Hll0 with win. primer and claybuster wad should be around 8,200 psi and is a excellent load with long hull life. I remember reading the 20/28 powder was made just for the new 28 HS hulls and the pressures are like ll,300 with Unique and I think that's abit high for a tube-set. You can always buy just one pound of a powder and try it before you buy the 8 pounders. Oh-Yeh, You can coat the inside of the powder bushings with fingernail polish to bring them down to what you need. This way you can always remove the polish and you still have a factory correct size bushing if you change powders down the road for any reason. I never ream out a powder bushing. Good Luck and have fun with the little bores. I too love the 28's. break em all Jeff
     
  20. StansCustoms

    StansCustoms Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the info Jeff...

    28 gauges are sooo much fun...I'm trying to shoot all three top gauges with a 28 and Tubes for the .410. May not be able too...but it's so much easier to shoot maybe it'll make up the difference in the pattern....and lead count.

    Stan...
     
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