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Berlin-Wassnee Patterning?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by skeet_man, Nov 18, 2009.

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  1. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

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    Anyone use this method to more articulately analyze their patterns?
     
  2. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

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    sry, misspelled the name in the title....knew I was going to do that too but I didn't check before i posted it LOL
     
  3. whiz white

    whiz white Strong Supporter of Trapshooting Banned

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    I use it often, particularly the mathematics of it.


    [​IMG]


    Whiz White
     
  4. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Whiz, how consistent are the results, pattern-to-pattern? Let's take those "evenness" ratings. Say a pattern showed good evenness - will the next one(s) do so too?

    And how about thickening? It it independent of pattern percentage, or can you predict thickening averaged over, say, ten patterns, by averaging their overall pattern percentages?

    Last, can you post some typical results?

    Neil
     
  5. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    Oh-Oh, I smell a quiz comming.LOL. We'd better pay attention.

    Neil, Do you use a similar sheet? or wouldn't concentric circles give you the same visually and easier? I am always impressed by the depth of your research. Shoot well, Bob
     
  6. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Neil, did you perk_up when this topic appeared?

    I promise I won't get involved in this one but I will be evaluating your responses :)
     
  7. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    I've used this method many times.
     
  8. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    I use it all the time. Makes it a lot easier to count holes and do math. By the way, its not a bad looking pattern except for the bottom left quadrant.

    Nice old Model 12 too. Wayne
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Oh come on, guys, tell us your results. I'll start with the illustrated pattern. This one indicates a gun with perfect-to- good central evenness*, but a periphery too uneven for consistent field use. Since this just what you would expect for a gun with a 68% pattern at long range handicap, what additionally have we learned?

    Specifically, in your experience, how well do these measurements repeat? Is the next one likely to be like this? In the same places (or different places)?

    I hope someone can shed some light of the effectiveness of this system; apparently a lot of people use it.

    Neil

    * well, it's supposed to be between perfect and good central evenness (quotient = 1.7) , but certainly quadrants 1 and 4, the upper ones in the center, though they have similar pellet counts have contrasting evenness, quadrant 4 being fine and 1 not very good at all. And yet they would have about equal influence in determining that the center is perfect-to-good. How come? And with a thickening rate of 1.55 we are lead to believe that this pattern "has not spread enough" and yet it's only 68% now. I'm guessing those recommendations are for game shooting, not trap shooting; am I right?
     
  10. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    The Pheasantmaster evaluating the Pattern Master?? Some one's got my attention. I still view Neil as the King in this patterning arena.LOL Shoot often while we can, Bob
     
  11. abbielew

    abbielew TS Member

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    As soon a I saw the subject, Berlin-Wassnee Patterning, I said to my self,
    wait till Neil Winston sees this one. Sure enough, 3 or 4 lines, down there
    was Neil with his question ???. I love when Neil picks up on a subject
    as I get reading material for the rest of the day. I am not saying I under
    stand all his logic but it must be right as Neil is saying so.

    Here is my question for all you shooters, Neil can get in on this one
    if he wants to.

    Say that day has come, the Trumpet has sounded and all us Trap Shooters
    are standing at the Pearly Gates. We are all in a line to get our pass into
    Trap Shooting Heaven from St. Peter. We only have to answer a couple of questions, nothing hard, just if we have been good shooters etc, etc.

    Neil Winston is up front of the line and gets into a discussion with St Peter as to some Technical Question about Trap Shooting in Heaven, shooting conditions, are 7-1/2 or 8 shot allowed or is it one or the other.
    What about wind conditions in heaven. Neil Winston can and does asks very
    good quetions and being we are all in heaven, he deserves Correct and reliable extraction of all these answers from St. Peter.

    This process of information gathering by Neil could take a very long, long,long time. Does any one know if the rest of us Trap Shooter will be able to do any Trap Shooting while we are waiting for Neil Winston to get all his questions answered.

    Just wondering,

    Birddog
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    The only solution I can see to your problem, birddog, is for you to make sure you get there first.

    Neil
     
  13. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    Neil, this is the real world that most of us live in........
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure what that means, s410g. But now you are here again, and are one who has used the B-W system many times, how did it work?

    Neil
     
  15. RickN

    RickN Well-Known Member

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    "is for you to make sure you get there first."

    lmao!
     
  16. whiz white

    whiz white Strong Supporter of Trapshooting Banned

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    I used the basic board and judged the results from what I saw. I am a graduate mathematician and statistician, so I do like the numbers. This is not that big a deal mathematically speaking.

    Repeatable? As repeatable is shells are. You can do this many times, and should be particularly vigilant for the patern holes.

    I'll post the narrative side as soon as I find it. I failed to save the obverse side and have emailed my buddy here who is really into this. He did email me a copy of it, but it is too hard to read.

    If you are being testy about this in the sense of substantiating evidence, and I assume you are not, then I am totally uninterested in any diatribe. I use the method. It has shown me that most chokes are over-kill, particularly for bird hunting, and when set up for know distances of "kill", it serve as a nice tool in evaluating chokes. It sure as hell works... when I block pheasant hunting.

    Again, I don't have the time or interest to study this any further than providing the information to the original poster. If you have the time, go for it and post your results.

    PS: Who says we're all going to Heaven?

    Whiz
     
  17. abbielew

    abbielew TS Member

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    Neil, I was just joking with the St. Peter thing. I look forward to
    seeing you e-mails and the discussion it brings. Just keep it up and
    do not stop, as I do enjoy it.

    birddog
     
  18. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    Whiz, if we are going to be vigilant in counting pattern holes, don't we have to move up to #6 shot as Oberfell & Thompson had suggested? Or can we use a smaller diameter hole for smaller shot, like 3-1/2" for 7-1/2 shot or 2-1/2" for #8? I've always wondered if thats been calculated with the Oberfell/Thompson method. Their 5" hole was with #6 shot for kills with wing shooting. I think counting smaller holes with smaller shot would give you a more plausible distribution of holes for clay targets.

    Neil, I don't think the "thickening" is independent of the pattern percentage. If you took each quadrant separately. If you take the lower left quadrant, it has 53.7% hits in the hot core. One might think thats not to bad, but the thickening is a woeful 3.5. Whereas the upper right has 30.5% hits in the hot core, and a thickening of 1.32. The only real way to find out would be to shoot a minimum of 10 targets and record each quad. Wayne
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Bob Hawkes, you asked about concentric circles and I can tell you for sure there's nothing there. As a new and I must say gullible shooter, I read O&T, Zutz, the whole bunch of them. Since I could not (and still can't) divine any way of actually using the Berlin system, I divided my patterns into 0-10, 10-15, 15-20, 20-25, 25-30 and "out" rings - each of then subdivided into quadrants - and shot and counted hundreds of them. They were totally unrepeatable, as were "patches." A "weak upper left quadrant" would be replaced by a weak quadrant somewhere else next shot, or an even pattern, or another weak upper left quadrant or a weakness somewhere else and so on. It was all chance. Pattern percentage wasn't a waste of time since there was some consistency and a few surprises, but all the more detailed analysis just evaporated next time you did the test.

    Here's why this is interesting. I think there must be a feeling by the B-W users (and all the informal patterners here on TS.com) that what they find in a pattern is a characteristic of the barrel or shell or combination, that is, evenness (or patchiness) will repeat and you can load for or buy evenness while keeping the pattern percentage the same. The counter view - call it the Gaussian fringe - is that all 70% patterns are about the same in the long run and all this talk about evenness and patches is just imaginations run wild, the cold fusion of shotgunning.

    That's why I asked for some results. This is no prelude to a diatribe, as Whiz puts it, just a request for some results so we maybe can tell who is more right in the controversy above. It may be that no one actually has used it and so the answer to the question posed by skeet-man is "no" and that's about it.

    As I said above, I used my own system since I couldn't figure out how to use the Berlin-Wansee one. How do you do it? I got a couple of German guns with such patterns but they weren't centered so were totally useless, as far as I could tell. In the opening post's right-hand picture someone has taken the time to scribe the template after the shot and I can imagine that working, at least mechanically, but how do you use a preprinted sheet?

    If you Google the system you get next to nothing and usually you get thousands for the most arcane search. The other night I thought back to a documentary about the last days of Richard Feinman and his interest in taking a trip to Mongolia to see Tuvan throat singing first hand. So I google that unusual vocal art and got 532,000 references. But "Berlin-Wansee + shotgun patterns" only gets a couple which apply. To me this is strong evidence that whatever may be its history, it's history.

    But if I ever get all the rest of the stuff I have hanging over my head done, it might be a fun project. Any bets? Will Super-Lite powder (the old stuff) actually produce more even patterns and will the Berlin-Wansee System be able to prove it? Get your tickets at the window at the left; we are just about to close the gate and only customers inside the tent at that time will get to see this amazing show.

    Neil
     
  20. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Neil- You are overlooking one advantage of the Berlin system. The circle is divided into 16 sub sections. It is much easier to count the holes in each subsection and adding them together than count the holes in a 20 and 30 inch ring. Many times I have began counting holes in concentric circles and became confused and had to start over.

    Whiz- I also like numbers and I am sure I am not as qualified to analyze them as you are. I have counted a lot of holes in patterns. They have an apparent random distribution more concentrated in the center and becoming less concentrate toward the edge. When I put some confidence limits around the mean number of holes in the central 20 inch circle and try to compare different loads, the only thing I can conclude is that I did a lot of work to achieve results that don't mean a lot. (loads with Green Dot do seem to be an exception to this general statement).

    Pat Ireland
     
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