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Benchrest Testing Method

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Hooligan, Jul 26, 2008.

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  1. Hooligan

    Hooligan Member

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    Jan 29, 1998
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    Maybe Neil or someone can provide a few answers for me. Here in Aus we are limited to 1oz loads for trap so there appears not much point in conducting POI experiments with heavier loads. Using a 13yd setup like Neil recommends and also noting his other recommendations I find the lighter 1oz load of 7.5 even with a full choke
    does not group tightly enough to punch a hole in the paper as appears in Neil's
    pix. I have shot a very large number of shells and found some variation in individual chokes as to POI. Following quite a bit of reading about bench rest rile shooting I would be interested to know what the majority of shooters use as regards
    "recoil absorbtion" when bench resting a 12g shotgun and if it affects the result?
    Is it better to rest the fore-end and the stock on a sandbag and pull the stock into the shoulder to absorb recoil? Is it preferred to rest the fore-end on the sand bag and simply shoulder the stock? Is a better and more consistent method of
    free recoil preferred eg. Sand bag rest both the fore-end and stock and allow
    free recoil. The rifle shooters appear to use all 3 methods.
    Barry
     
  2. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    hooligan, If you know the riffle shooters, they can really help you out. First they will laugh a bit when you tell them what your looking to do. I got"what the hell do you need to do that for with bird shot". They where particularly helpful in testing how true my barrela where and also chokes. I too did not get the tight hole with my trsting either. my full choke is a browning invp also rated for steel. I would emagine this is not as tight as a true full choke. as far as the method. they had a bench/vise that held the gun very well.
    once the barrels where ruled out. I just used a heavy bench and bags for future test. I even tried one of those hunters gun rest that looks like walking stick, sortof worked. Neil if you read, is there any benefit to string targets in the air at or around the hieght and yardage of where you think you hitting targets. I saw a gent useing frizbies to teach his son. It seemed he was throwing them faster than the clays. His son has been down since and shot well, 10yrs old. Hooligan time and patience is all you need, yeah and a bunch of shells.
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Hooligan, I have a folding benchrest I often travel with and a more conventional stand I use at Metro Gun Club in Blaine, Minnesota. The folding one has an integrated support for the gun, the other just lets me use my hand. My shoulder stops the gun in both cases and the results are similar, though I prefer the one which has me hold the gun.

    A rifleman needs something which gives the possibility of an inch in 100 yards; the shotgunner needs about the same at 13 yards, though better would be nice. I'm personally doubtful that a shotgun shoots in the same place anyway. Garwood predicts a "pattern" of POI centers and that's what I usually get. I just measure to about an inch anyway thinking at greater precision is an illusion.

    I think you can get a good idea where a shotgun shoots in maybe a box or two of shells, shot over several sessions. Shoot just one shot per aim-point and record _every_ shot. That will tell you not only where it goes, but how much it varies shot-to-shot. I think that trigger/arm/flinch/jerk effects are a real problem, so I add a comment with every shot: "bad shot" "OK shot" "Good shot" and I'll get a few of each every test session.

    I don't test one-ounce shells much but imagine that if you use 8's you should be able to duplicate what I get with 1 1/8 and 7 1/2's.

    Mac, as far as hanging targets I must say I don't see much advantage. Up close, how would you hit them anyway?

    Neil
     
  4. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    The hanging target was just a thought, kinda thinking that the target would be roughly in the same position as the clay would be at 35y at say 18' or so. We have trees on each side and could be done easy. also thought about targets that do not break but rather the pellets stick into it? up to late up to early to much thinking. Really I have to thank Neil again. March 07 I was at a loss with my new XT, couldnt hit squat. Neils method and a few pattern sessions, I won club winter league and my first state shoot (d class) This year was 2nd C class. Now my average is B class. I did not get a lot of targets in this year. I was more than happy with my scores with the little practice I got. Shooting where im looking, found my Favorite chokes.
     
  5. country gentleman

    country gentleman Member

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    Hooligan,
    After the benchwork is done, shoot several boxes freestanding. Dont freak out when some of the shots go astray. Flinches, torqx, skweezes, pushes, hunches will be revealed from the freestanding position and are often hidden from the bench. I have benched several guns that patterned fine only to hand the gun to a client who shot 8in left @ 35yds because of a flinch that wasnt revealed on the bench. Todd
     
  6. AAtrap

    AAtrap Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    Nebraska
    Barry, you may try using cardboard to check your POI. I have had the same problem with lighter loads out of a full choke. After shooting the target and no hole, check the back of the cardboard and it will be more evident where the POI for that shot is. I can usually stick my finger through it from the back side.

    Todd, you have brought up a subject that I have been wanting to comment on recently and that is; after shooting from the bench,always do some testing off-hand afterwards. If I'm not mistaken, I think ZZT mentioned this in one of his threads quite some time ago.

    I was recently checking POI at 13 yds on a KS-5 Special that I had put an add-on rib on and then patterned it several times at 32yds from the bench only (I did not take the time to shoot some targets off-hand). According to the bench only testing, I believed the gun to be shooting about 70% high at that distance. After shooting several decent scores, in some unusually calm weather conditions and rather flat targets I thought I had the gun shooting where I wanted it to for 16yd. targets.

    I might mention here, that I usually set my gun to shoot about 60% high for 16yd. targets. A week later at a registered shoot, with a NW wind(shooting N) and rising or higher targets I shot two lower scores and was dumbfounded at some of the targets I was missing. Thinking I was probably shooting over the targets; I kept getting into the gun tighter. After completing the second 100 targets, a friend told me that I was getting dust off the bottom of the targets. This suprised me,but began to make some sense as I though back to previous things I had been doing (getting into the gun tighter) and some of my breaks.

    The following Monday I headed for the bench with targets, bags and shells. I rechecked Poi at 13yds. and pattern at 32yds. with the same results I had gotten before. Taking some time to review what I was doing, I noticed that while shooting from the bench I was placing my sandbags and rear shooting bag much farther forward which was in turn putting my cheek farther back on the stock than I normally shoot(I am very bad about crawling a stock,but shoot better scores that way). I then moved the bags back on the bench and made sure I placed my cheek on the stock where I normally would standing and shot for POI. I wasn't too suprised to find that I was shooting almost dead on at 13yds.

    I also shot several targets off-hand (32yds) after adding spacers to get the gun shooting approximately where I had previously thought it was shooting.

    Lessons I learned from that experience were: 1. always position shooting bags on the bench so that you place your head on the stock where you normally would from a standing position and 2.I will always finish my patterning sessions with several shots from a standing position.

    Just a personal experience that may or may not be helpful to those who spend some time at the bench with a scatter gun. Steve
     
  7. Hooligan

    Hooligan Member

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    Jan 29, 1998
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    Thanks to all for the input and suggestions. I am only pursuing this exercise as I have been trying to set up a DT10 for doubles and want to compare POI of both bbl's. I have already established some differences in chokes of different make and the same constriction. I have been trap shooting for a long time and must have developed some pretty consistent faults! At 15m (16y)I run an average of 98.3%
    and my gun shoots where I look. I have removed the mid rib bead as I cannot see it anyway with my glasses. I can smoke targets all day and the go out and free standing shoot at a pattern board with a terrible result. At 17yds I hit the board 5" high and 4" left. I am happy with the 5" high but if I set the cast at my comb to correct the horizontal POI I sure would not smoke many targets! When shooting I never bother to look at the beads at all - I just mount the gun - look out over the barrel, and call pull and it all works!!
    Barry
     
  8. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    This system works.

    A fellow bought and set up a KS-5 by eye, and had pretty mediocre results with it.

    We installed a bore matched Angleport Full in the gun, and put it on the bench at 13 yards. The gun was about 50/50 vertical, but about 70/30 TO THE LEFT. We had a short talk about maintaining the same bead and comb relationship on the bench as on the trap field.

    Six shots and a little fiddling with the comb and rib, and VIOLA. We have about 80/20 vertical and 50/50 horizontal! Not only is the gun purring like a kitten, the owner has a mental picture of what is going on around the bead when the trigger is pulled. Also, the gun had a complete cleaning and service to assure flawless functioning.

    Knowing what your gun is doing and having the knowledge that it will boil every target is the ultimate confidence builder.

    Now, the K-gun boils targets like it is supposed to, and the owner is a happy camper.

    Thanks Neil. I have stolen your procedure and use it without shame. As you probably intended. LOL
     
  9. Hooligan

    Hooligan Member

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    Shooting Coach
    Somewhere I have got lost. I follow what you a telling me however if I set my gun freehand on the pattern board to shoot a 50/50 horizontal POI by altering the cast at the comb I no longer smoke targets. My targets all smoke when the pattern board is telling me the gun shoots left. It has always been the same for many years.
    I have concluded that in swinging to the target my mount changes albeit on a pretty consistent basis. I must have a poor "shooting form" which has become ingrained and
    believe me I am too old to change it now. At 72 it is tough enough to hang on to AA
    believe me. Barry
     
  10. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Hooligan, maybe you won't have to change but it sure sounds to me like your stock doesn't fit as it should? Possibly a properly fitted stock would solve the problems in both places? Hap
     
  11. RunGunIPSC

    RunGunIPSC TS Member

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    I sit at a bench & hold the fore-end resting in my hand on a rifle rest. I put the butt at my sholder as I would if shooting. I shoot at the range I am breaking targets. 1 shot per paper or cardboard. 40 yds for a full,20 for skeet,inbetween for others. That way I get POI & pattern. 3" orange dot @40 1-2" @ 20. You can get lots of cardboard from a furniture place,auto glass shops,appliance stores. I ALWAYS shoot oz at 40 yds. Enough shot there to determine what is going on. Have been patterning for 35 yrs,never found a better method. Take 2 3/8" re-bar sharpened 5' long. pound into ground.Clamp your cardboard in between with clothes pins. Folding sawhorses & a piece of plywood. Pattern board whereever you go. Make a wind flag from a piece of ribbon. Tom.PS I parttern in my back yard.
     
  12. stokinpls

    stokinpls Well-Known Member

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    If you can afford it, put a 25lb bag of shot between you and the stock.
     
  13. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    I have a step-ladder that I was going to use for POI testing this week on one trap gun and one sporting gun. I was thinking I could make a normal mount, and use the ladder as a rest. Would this perhaps give a truer picture of what the normal POI will be? Isn't it harder to duplicate the normal mount from a sitting or kneeling position?

    Danny
     
  14. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    One must make sure they have the same stock weld and bead relationship on the bench that they have on the field. It helps if a well versed shooter assists.

    Many folks have a slight flinch, which is easily detected by several methods. The dud hull is the easiest, but one can see a flinch on the bench.

    If this was easy, EVERYBODY would shoot 100 straight! It IS a mental game.
     
  15. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

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    HI
    Hooligan,

    With a 98.3 average, it seems like your sub-conscious mind has adjusted to a gun that does not quite fit you. You will have to re-train your self to shoot if you get the gun to "fit" you. With a 98.3 average I would not bother to re-train and since you feel that "the gun shoots were you are looking". The phrase "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" comes to mind.

    When you shoot from a bench you are finding out where the gun/barrels shoot. Shooting free hand tells you where you are shooting at a stationary target. The next step is lock the trap to throw straight aways; zero in on the straight aways, then move to shoot some soft angles. The final test is to shoot a few rounds of trap.

    Jason
     
  16. Hooligan

    Hooligan Member

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    Well that has certainly given me a bit of food for thought. Thanks to all who have taken the time. I like the idea of the 25lb bag of shot between the gun and my shoulder. I have spent quite a bit of money over the years on stock fitting but unfortunately we have very few competent fitters over here. I am aware that when shooting at a fixed target from a freestanding position I do tend to tighten up on the fore-end of the gun with my left hand and can pull the shot left. I do not seem to do this when actually shooting moving targets. And Jason I always fine tune on straight aways until I get smoke. Barry
     
  17. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    Barry,

    I did POI and patterning today from a step-ladder, as presented in my post above. See my thread "POI..." something, it's late.

    I could make a normal mount, then make a very small movement to the ladder, with a towel on the step of the ladder. I'm six feet tall, so the top step (the "no-step") of the ladder was perfect for me. Someone much shorter could use the next lower step.

    I found this "bench mount" to be very stable. Look at my patterns.

    Danny
     
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