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Barrel Regulation on older Perazzi's?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Scoutman 06, May 15, 2013.

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  1. Scoutman 06

    Scoutman 06 Member

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    Barrel Regulation on older Perazzi

    I have an older MX-8, Ser. no. 42xxx, & have heard that the barrels are regulated for POI by hand tuning the chokes after finally assembly. I am considering having Briley choke tubes installed & was concerned that if the barrels were threaded in line with bore axis, the POI may be not be correct afterward. Thanks in advance, John
     
  2. drgondog

    drgondog Member

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    Perazzi barrels were lined up by eye and tested - but you will not have a problem putting in screw in chokes as long as the choke tube installer does His job.
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Based on the many I have tested, I think they were bent about straight, soldered together, and sold. No "regulation" as Anglophiles like to chat about over a warm, hand-drawn Best Bitter.

    Neil
     
  4. semperfi909

    semperfi909 Well-Known Member

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    My experience has been very different than that of Mr. Winston. Of the 20+/- old guns that have been thru my hands none have shot other than where pointed and both barrels to the same spot. Only two of those were MX8's but the Mirages and the three MT6's I suspect were Perazzi enough to qualify.

    There was one, which I passed on buying, that had some probs but it had been "tuned" for ATA trap - or so the owner claimed. Not sure who "tuned" it but the monster bores and foot long forcing cones didn't seem to have added value, as they say.

    All JMO, of course

    Charlie
     
  5. drgondog

    drgondog Member

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    I have run through one hell of a lot of Perazzi's since 1967 - all shot POI either 55/45 bottom and 50/50 top or close to that. The 68 SC3 that I shoot most of the time is 55/45 looking straight down the rib

    They definitely get 'em right during the assembly process and I know when you send one back (like for loose rib) they take it all off, re-regulate, put the side ribs back on, re-blue and check them. I have done that twice with same basic POI that I had when I sent it in.
     
  6. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    I'll second what drgondog has found. On the old guns (1965 to 1979) with side ribs, the tubes were had straightened before assembly to the monobloc and after assembly to the monobloc; then the ribs were soldered on.

    Once the ribs are soldered they can't be straightened, so anything that was poorly regulated was broken down and resoldered, twice and sometimes three times. After three tries the set is usually scrapped.

    Economy guns without side ribs like MT-6, MX-3 were sold as "close enough" because the barrels move during firing (heat), so it's a waste of time to try to get them perfect.

    Some of the pigeon guns were regulated goofy for box birds.

    Regards, GAP
     
  7. OLD ONE EYE

    OLD ONE EYE Well-Known Member

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    The MX 3 and MT 6 I own shoot as good a POI or better than my MX10 MX 8 or MX 3 special and there is no chance of side ribs coming lose either. They are still Perazzi's and most are a steal for what you get for the money.
    oldoneeye_2008_0303116.jpg

    oldoneeye_2008_030329.jpg
     
  8. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    Please oh PLEASE don't have Screwups installed. I have seen a number of Perazzi have their point of impact changed by doing Screwups. I call them Screwups because that's what you did when you had it done.

    T
     
  9. jsteenson

    jsteenson Member

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    I jst had my type 4 done by Briley, a lovely job.
     
  10. Steve W

    Steve W Well-Known Member

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    Perazzi barrels are very well regulated, POI was not "regulated" by chokes.

    Perazzi side ribs have very little to do with barrel regulations. And certainly has nothing to do with the price of the gun.

    One of my SCOs, MX-8, MX-12 pigeon gun and two MX-14 trap combos that I sold for my neighbor had no side ribs on them.
    stevew_2008_030350.jpg
     
  11. john g.

    john g. TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Neil

    I am having a hard time sleeping I could use warm Best Bitter now. The chat over the brls. after a few. at the paterning board.L.O.L.

    John G.
     
  12. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    Proper side rib installation is one of the most important factors in barrel regulation, and in the ability to maintain proper regulation through the heat cycling of high volume shooting, particularly in lightweight barrels.

    This is easily understood by a quick study of the Krieghoff/Rem 32 floating barrel design, with it's weight issues, and Krieghoff's recent efforts to make a lightweight barrel with the "parcours"; thin tubes with side ribs.

    The K-gun's floating barrels will expand independently, but are heavier by necessity; side ribs allow the entire unit to remain stiff but lightweight.

    Perazzi understood American trap as well as other types of sport. There is no comparison to high rate "lower barrel only" American games - and slower pigeon or Intl' style shooting.

    Doubles shooting obviously allows more even heating of the barrels during an event so it is less of an issue on a trap combo.

    Perazzi also understood marketing; hence the SC graded guns. "A fool and his money . . ."

    Briley does excellent work by the way, and may add some versatility to the old MX-8. GAP
     
  13. OLD ONE EYE

    OLD ONE EYE Well-Known Member

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    There is an other concern the older barrels are very close together got a set with Briley S1 tubes ordered a set of extended chokes and they would not fit in the barrels as the chokes touched had to send them back and they turned the knurling off so they would screw in even then they touch. Just a heads up also the flush mount chokes never seem to get louse like extended choke could never figure that out. Here is a picture of the chokes now.
    oldoneeye_2008_03039.jpg
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    When I wrote "Based on the many I have tested, I think they were bent about straight, soldered together, and sold. " I didn't intend for it to sound like criticism, rather just a simple statement of fact.

    I've had a lot of them and I test them all very, very carefully over several days of trials. I have maybe gotten a couple such as d-dog describes, but maybe only one really, really like that. Most are pretty good, some just OK, and then there are dogs.

    I buy interesting-looking ones and few stay long around here since my standard is at least "good or bettter."

    I don't think any of the testing people apparently dream about could possibly have been done at the price they used to be sold. And if it were really test-shot and corrected, how could I have gotten this one?

    Low-upper-barrel-shooter-web_zps21456aa6.jpg

    That's sort of on the extreme end of no good at all, but it's not the only one I've had.

    Don't get me wrong. These are the only guns I buy these days and are what I shoot. If the wind goes down, I'll post a couple of pictures of POI's that I think are on the good end of performance; the gun I shot today for example.

    Neil
     
  15. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    Occasionally there are bad ones, "Monday morning guns", my guess. That test gun does not appear too far from the norm lower barrel but for sure hitting low on the top barrel. Looks like post 70's Type 4 gun with 32". Mirage? Resolder?

    One reason to avoid "safe queens" - nobody parks a great shooter in the closet, and very few perfect guns come up for sale.

    I've seen them as bad but some people can still shoot them well. The bad Beretta 682's seem to be bent the other way, good top tube but way low under barrel.

    An experienced eye can read the rings and tell fairly close where the pipes will hit; which is the technique utilized at the factory to ensure proper regulation.

    The early MX-8 earned it's reputation the hard way, on the line, and they cost several month's pay for a working man! Their balance and accuracy seldom bettered, even today.
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    It was that era of O/U, Gapper, but I don't recall if it was a Mirage or MX-8. I bought it used so I don't know its history, but according to the rings it should have been a straight-shooter.

    Parazzi at the time had a far, far better record for appropriate POI than one of its (unnamed) competitors. I think it must take a vast amount of experience, skill, and just plain hard work to build just one O/U that shoots right and the task of making a lot of them near impossible, so I am not either surprised or offended that one like the one pictured above slips out now and then.

    I hadn't considered your safe-queen advice; I think you have a point. I'll keep it in mind.

    I buy with a three-day right of inspection when I don't have the gun in my hands to examine.

    I do a lot of testing of POI off a bench at 13 yards when the wind is calm. Yes, a shooter can often shoot a not-so-good gun very well; but why accept a handicap when the next gun you find may be the perfect one and you do plan to shoot for the rest of your life, don't you? (As I ask myself every time I pass a vendor's gun rack or notice a tag on a S/N 37,000 to 65,000 Perazzi by the clubhouse. Those last ones, the 64,000 Mirages with ramped ribs - now they were the absolute peak for Perazzi, in my opinion. )

    Neil
     
  17. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    I don't do much pattern testing at all any more; only when sensing something awry.

    The only value in pattern testing is for comparative or troubleshooting purpose; and only then if changes are available and acceptable. What to do with the SCO with bad pipes? Re-regulate or relegate to the the glass tomb.

    Change chokes, change shells, change comb height, change guns. On a quality gun, all are best evaluated by average score - fact. Leave the Stevens 311 behind the barn door.

    7 1/2 or 8? - EASY - Show me your average.

    Have to agree with those Perazzi serial ranges/years, and careful study of the guns show when and where they took less and less handwork through the years; almost like meeting the man who did the work. Around 55,000 was in most ways the pinnacle, but newer guns are still excellent.

    When did Mattarelli split? Let alone Luciano, Ivo, P-V and others. If anyone thinks those guys were replaceable - wrong.


    An amazing revelation was that the total gun, with all it's intricate machining and hand fitting of the receiver, all those moving parts, and Danielle acknowledged the barrels were the most difficult part to make.

    Regards, GAP
     
  18. SCO/C

    SCO/C Active Member

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    Not intend to getting into an argument, but some of the comments are questionable, and some are offending.

    Quote from Gapper:

    "Economy guns without side ribs like MT-6, MX-3 were sold as "close enough" because the barrels move during firing (heat), so it's a waste of time to try to get them perfect.

    Some of the pigeon guns were regulated goofy for box birds."

    What makes you say "Economy guns" have anything to do with or without side ribs?

    And what makes you say "sold as close enough"? It's a serious accusation to the most popular competition shotgun maker in the world.

    And why is pigeon guns were regulated "goofy"? They shoot high, same reason as ATA guns. Why is this "goofy"?

    Then: "...the SC graded guns. "A fool and his money . . ." What are you implying?

    And your comments about Kreighoff and Remington are certainly offending.
     
  19. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    Expanations are easy enough.

    The MT-6 was the original effort to get a more cost effective universal gun into the hands of joe average. Built to save cost by eliminating the removeable trigger group, eliminating difficult manufacturing areas such as side ribs and the difficulties getting them right. All this equals cost savings.

    The same case is made for eliminating passive locking on the MX-3 (square monobloc vs. round) and receiver sculpting. Cost savings. Sell it.

    The "new" MT-6 was released and Ithaca tried to raise the price; the result when people tried them they went back to the MX-8. Market failure-back to the drawing board by 1980-discontinued by 1984. Rarely seen on trap fields. I see an unsingle MT-6 on occasion.

    "Goofy" is stuff like top firing barrels, lower barrels bent upward to achieve advantageous P.O.I. shift. All of which were tried: resulting in failure.

    Many pigeon guns were built for speed, deletion of side ribs is not a big disadvantage if weight is the enemy. Slow firing allows the barrels to cool in between shots.

    The Krieghoff 80/Rem 32 are excellent guns; I've several of each but the barrels are heavy. You are familiar with the new K-80 parcours? Getting the weight out of the barrels and having them maintain uncorrupted impact points requires side ribs. Welcome to ULM 2012; every top shooter knew it years ago. All good, better late than never. A K80 is my go-to gun right now, so . . .

    Study the MT-6 from 1975 and to 1980 and you can see what went wrong, and how the factory compensated. Danielle knew there would be trouble with the hangers - BAM - marketing wins.


    I own nice engraved guns, they stay home. Shiny guns are bought to impress, and if you've got it, flaunt it. I prefer the route of many top shooters - shoot a beater - impress with your skill - keep the gold off the gun and in your pocket!
     
  20. SCO/C

    SCO/C Active Member

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    I'm sorry, your explanation wasn't "easy" enough.

    If side ribs were cost concerns, why they put side ribs on MX-3, MX-5, MX-6, MX-7 ? All these cheapest models have side ribs. While some expensive MX-8 and even SCOs came with barrels without side ribs.

    MT6 was not marketed as a cheap model as MX-3 or any of the above mentioned, otherwise it won't have square monobloc. it had very similar MSRP as MX-8 in the '70s. It's an experimental model that didn't catch the market.
     
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