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Barel lenghts and chokes question?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Aussie Dan, Dec 17, 2011.

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  1. Aussie Dan

    Aussie Dan Member

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    Hi Everyone,

    Quick couple of questions-

    Does anyone use 30 inch barrels off 16 yards for singles?

    What would be an normal singles barrel for 16 yards, 34 inch?

    what Perazzi choke would be normal for 16 yard shooting- number 6 through 34inch?

    What choke is used for CAPS shooting- Perazzi number 8?

    Has anyone tested barrel length versus choke size over distance? ie would a number 6 choke on a 34 inch barrel pattern the same at 30 yards as a number 8 choke in a 30 inch barrel?

    Thanks in advance, still learning the technical details of ATA shooting, really enjoying learning from you guys!
     
  2. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    When using an O/U a 30 inch barrel is common. When using a single barrel trap gun a 34 inch barrel is preferred. The most important thing is to find a combination that hits where you are looking. HMB
     
  3. Aussie Dan

    Aussie Dan Member

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    yes but is the difference in length due to barrel weight of for choke benefits?

    Example, would a tighter choked 30 inch singles barrel be too light or something?
     
  4. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Don't worry about stuff like that. Just find a choke barrel combinatin that smokes targets and hits where the gun is pointed. HMB
     
  5. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Quick couple of questions-

    Does anyone use 30 inch barrels off 16 yards for singles?

    <i>Yes, it is quite common and successful</i>

    What would be an normal singles barrel for 16 yards, 34 inch?

    <i>any of 30, 32, or 34. usually 34 if using a single barrel o/u</i>

    what Perazzi choke would be normal for 16 yard shooting- number 6 through 34inch?

    <i>#6 or #8</i>

    What choke is used for CAPS shooting- Perazzi number 8?

    <i>#8 yes.</i>

    Has anyone tested barrel length versus choke size over distance? ie would a number 6 choke on a 34 inch barrel pattern the same at 30 yards as a number 8 choke in a 30 inch barrel?

    <i>That's one to ask Neil Winston.</i>

    Thanks in advance, still learning the technical details of ATA shooting, really enjoying learning from you guys!
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Hi Aussie,

    Yours is an interesting question, but to answer it, we have to backtrack a bit. A fact of life is that you never know _exactly_ how a barrel is going to perform, whether it have fixed chokes or interchangeable, until you go out and find out how it performs. While I think the shibboleth "Every gun is a law into itself" very much overstates the situation, one finds result-differences everywhere. Why even when the makers of test barrels hold every tolerance to a tenth, the shot-speeds produced will vary by 10, 20, 30 fps.

    I've been doing my choke-tube testing with a 30-inch Optima-bore 391 and I have to say that five brands are about the same, while two are different. The five good ones are about as good as anything you are likely to run into and match the general run of very good Perazzi fixed chokes in 34-inch single barrels. So I don't think you can make any generalizations at all that 30-inch barrels respond to choking any differently than 34-inch tubes. But you won't know if any two differing in length, choke, or sequential serial numbers will shoot differently unless you test them.

    And the chances that either you or anyone else actually will test them to the extent and with the care required to find small differences is about zero. The only way the two oddities above were separated out was ten patterns from each from the same lot of shells, every pellet counted and the data organized to highlight difference. If you didn't do that, I think you would never be able to answer your question or, for that matter, ever tell the #6 from the #8 in any gun. That's the problem with "Every gun is a law unto itself." It's only true if you really, really look, and even then, most are very similar. Most you could never find differences in in a million years if "informal" testing is your standard, though harder work may produce better results, or not.

    One place to start, if you are interested in the technical side of shooting (and again, few really are), is at the link above which might keep you occupied for a while.

    Neil
     
  7. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    "Has anyone tested barrel length versus choke size over distance? ie would a number 6 choke on a 34 inch barrel pattern the same at 30 yards as a number 8 choke in a 30 inch barrel?"

    At 30 yards, the fullest choke will have the denser center core. Comparing most chokes with barrel length alone is an apples and orange comparison, usually.

    If we assume that barrel length matters that much, why not 36 or 40 inch barrels? Some "long toms" don't shoot any better patterns than 28 inch barrels choked alike. Weight makes for smooth moves on a moving target, not barrel length alone. It seems there's exceptions to almost every thing we take for granted with shotguns?

    Hap
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    While what Hap says is true, if you were to test your number 6 choke against you number 8, thirty (or 40) yards, ten shots from same box, more than half of the twenty patterns could have been shot from either tube; there's is that much (or more) general overlap. Here's what I am talking about:

    [​IMG]

    As you see, even though these two guns _do_ shoot very differently, six of the ten Optima patterns could have been shot from the other gun. And vice-versa. And remember, these are counted patterns, and the data was organized to see what was going on. A few pattern sheets spread out on the ground can never tell you anything, no matter how much easier and less expensive it is. You may come away thinking you have learned something but It's so likely to to be imaginary that you are usually better off just admitting "I don't know" and not opening yourself to the wrong answer and the bad decisions wrong answers can lead to.

    Neil
     
  9. Aussie Dan

    Aussie Dan Member

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    Great replied guys, keep em coming!

    @HMB- It would be so easy if i could forget about this stuff and just shoot but i need to scratch the itch!

    @BigM- thanks for your reply.

    @Neil Winston- Exactly the sort of info i was trying to find, i knew someone on here would have studied the data. I will have a read of your page, thanks.

    @ Hap Mec Tweaks-
    Thanks for the post, but, If what you say is true-
    "At 30 yards, the fullest choke will have the denser center core. Comparing most chokes with barrel length alone is an apples and orange comparison, usually"
    Then why would anyone, ever, use a 34 inch barrel for 16 yrd shooting? if what your saying is right then it makes no difference to Pattern at all?

    Does it simply hold the velocity of the shells longer?
     
  10. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Dan, a 34 inch barrel supposedly does have a small amount more velocity than does a 30 inch tube. I personally don't feel there's enough differences to write home about though.

    Depending on the quality of a persons eyesight, it may be a tad easier to maintain alignment with a longer tube? I use a 34,31-1/2 and 30 inch myself but I've broken just as many clay targets in succession with a 30 inch full choked gun in the past.

    If a shooter stood beside you and you loaded and handed him the gun and he didn't open his eyes till it was mounted and ready to call for a target, how many could tell a 30,32 or 34 inch barrel? Another point, when attacking a moving clay target, why do the top shooters, mostly, recommend moving the upper body/gun as a single unit? (I'm speaking of trap shooting here) If that's true, how would a couple inches of barrel length make any difference? I once used my nephews turkey gun, a Rem.1100 23 inch barrel with an extra full choke tube and broke 24 from 27 yards! The one I missed I woulda missed regardless of barrel length!!

    As Neil W. would probably say, it's tough to change a trapshooters mind?

    Hap
     
  11. rocketman100

    rocketman100 TS Member

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    The answer to barrel length/specific choke tubes fitted/ type of gun/individual gun lies in quantified handling measurements. First, it must be understood that handling "dimensions" are like stock fit dimensions in that there are individual and not subject to average or normal or some summative statement or number. Weight of the gun, like length of pull, is just a fact until you know who is going to shoot the gun and how that person relates to those measurements. Objective measurements state no opinion as to the value of the number, whereas subjective statements are usually expressions of "goodness." For example, "This gun has a perfect length of pull." But, perfect for who?

    Objective, as opposed to subjective, handling dimensions (facts) are measurements as follows. Weight, usually in pounds, gives muscle effort to hold, carry, and lift the gun. Teeter totter balance point (not to be confused with the subjective summative balance which states an opinion), coupled with hand spread determines how the gun's weight is apportioned to each hand. The most convenient reference point for balance it the (front) trigger and is usually given in inches. Unmounted swing effort (MOI at balance point X 10) gives the muscle effort required to change the direction (left-right-up-down) the gun is pointing. Mounted swing effort is the same thing only after mounting the gun to the shoulder.

    Each individual gun is a combination of the weights of the various components and their locations. Weight is a summation. Balance is a zero result of weights times locations. Swing effort is a summation of weights times locations squared.

    If there is interest, I'll post some examples of various trap guns.
     
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