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Balance.. How important to you? Why?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by JerryP, Jul 27, 2007.

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  1. JerryP

    JerryP Active Member

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    Once the gun is brought to the shoulder balance doesn't matter. It becomes a question of whether the front end is too heavy or too light.
     
  2. code5coupe

    code5coupe Member

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    Balance and polar moment of inertia (PMI) are two different things, and many shooters get them confused.
    Not that it makes much difference to most of us....

    One can have a gun that is "balanced" to the point of being more heavily weighted towards the butt, yet still have it's PMI such that it feels muzzle-heavy.
    Personally, I like a gun that has a little mass at the muzzle. Not a lot, but just enough to be aware of. Which most guns have, right from the maker.
     
  3. Harold

    Harold TS Member

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    I think balance is important in a field gun or sporting clays where you have to quickly and smoothly mount the gun to your shoulder. For trap, where the gun is pre-mounted, not so much.
     
  4. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Zilch. In fact, when I read about the fine points of balance here I wonder how can some go on and on about it when I've never felt any difference at all in 25 years and half a million targets.

    Neil
     
  5. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    I never balance my gun. When shooting all sorts of guns trying to decide XT with 30" barrels always felt right. thats it
     
  6. hubcap

    hubcap TS Member

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    In my experience balance does play a part in my ability to shoot a gun well. I don't arm swing, but I like a gun that balances between my hands.

    hubcap
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    The balance point of a shotgun should be between your hands when the gun is mounted. I do not believe any shotgun could be made that did not fulfill this requirement.

    Could someone explain the term "polar moment of inertia" used above. I most likely learned that term many years ago for a test. I am glad I do not have to take the same test today.

    The perceived balance of a mounted shotgun can be changed by how tight the gun is gripped. Also, a loaded gun has a different balance point than an unload gun. We could even get into fine points about the change in balance when using a 7/8 oz and a 1 1/8 oz loads. That might be more fun than some other threads on this site.

    Pat Ireland
     
  8. Harold

    Harold TS Member

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    Pat, I think code5coupe must have meant "moment of inertia" instead of "polar moment of inertia." He probably knows the difference but we all get those brain farts from time to time. Polar moment of inertia is a structural property and has to do with resistance to torsion or twisting.

    Moment of inertia is the rotational analog of mass. You are familiar with Newton's equation F=ma. The rotational analog replaces force with torque and mass with moment of inertia. The moment of inertia is related to mass but not the same because it makes a big difference where the mass is placed relative to the axis of rotation. A small weight placed at the end of the barrel makes a big difference in the moment of inertia because it is far away from the axis of rotation which is close to the butt of the gun. Weight placed in the butt of the gun has a big effect on balance, but not so much on the moment of inertia because it is close to the axis of rotation.
     
  9. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    My Mach One is much more front heavy than my BarrKuhna which is very butt heavy. When I first shot my Mach One, I compensated for this and leaned back, looping up and over to the outside of the target for several losses. Weight in the stock fixed this. The extremes clarified the issue, at least for myself with my tall frame and light body weight.
     
  10. jnoemanh

    jnoemanh TS Member

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    Inertia vs polar moment of inertia. Inertia is the tendency for an object to remain at rest, or to remain in motion in a straight line. Two guns which weigh the same will have the same inertia, resistance to movement in a straight line, eg resistance to recoil.

    Polar moment is the inertia which opposes rotation about an axis.

    As an example, take 2 guns which both weigh 9#. Both have the same inertia in a straight line.

    Now imagine one of those guns has a large portion of it's weight between the hands, and the other has a large portion of it's weight at the front and rear. Gun #2 has a higher polar moment, and wll require more push to swing, and, once started to swing, will have more resistance to changing the speed of swing.

    Gun #1 will be more "lively", and gun #2 will swing more smoothly. If you think about it, this is the reason short barreled guns are quicker, and longer guns are smoother. Hence short guns for skeet and quail, where quick swing is important, and longer guns for trap and pass shooting ducks where smooth is more important than speed.
     
  11. Harold

    Harold TS Member

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    Polar moment of inertia is a measure of an object's ability to resist torsion. It is required to calculate the twist of an object subjected to a torque. It is analogous to the area moment of inertia, which characterizes an object's ability to resist bending and is required to calculate displacement.

    The larger the polar moment of inertia, the less the beam will twist, when subjected to a given torque.

    The polar moment of inertia must not be confused with the moment of inertia, which characterizes an object's angular acceleration due to a torque.
     
  12. jnoemanh

    jnoemanh TS Member

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    "The polar moment of inertia must not be confused with the moment of inertia, which characterizes an object's angular acceleration due to a torque."

    I stand corrected. Remove "polar" from my previous post.
     
  13. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    The writers of most shotgunning rags have created all kinds on myths concerning shotguns and fit, balance etc.. How else would their writing appeal/sales increase if everyone wrote the same thing over and over. Re-read what Neil says above about shooting a half million targets with his concerns on the importance of balance, in trapshooting? (This applying to trapshooting only) Balance being more important than stock fit? What a crock of "myth" someone has bought into with that one!! A shotgun can have a severe drop in the stock and be perfectly balanced at the hinge pin. Balance more important? I don't think so but the writer of that jewel must have thought so, or sold the idea to someone. Since shotgunning/fitting/manufacturing is an ART and not a science, I want more pictures of proof, not some written words on a salesman's theory.

    After saying that, a shotgun carried more than shot, yes, balance and the guns weight IS important to me! Why? Because it's normally carried in one hand and instantly thrown between the hands to my shoulder for a quick shot at a moving target. Time for a pictorial basics primer? You bet it is, way past time. Hap
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    To amplify on Harold's post (above) "A small weight placed at the end of the barrel makes a big difference in the moment of inertia because it is far away from the axis of rotation which is close to the butt of the gun" it's important to remember that while the mass involved is just the mass, the distances from the axis of rotation are magnified in their effect since they are squared in the calculation.

    Neil
     
  15. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Pat, Hap, what I think the world needs is a good "yellow box" gun test that a scribe can send in after just using "search and replace" to update it with this month's featured firearm.

    Hap, you get the wood & metal paragraph. Some comment on the "figure" is mandatory, a line or two about wood-to-metal fit, and some closing comments telling us about the lines per inch of the checkering and whether it is hand or machine cut, an important distinction. I'll even supply you the closing line: "There were three instances of the checkering intruding into the fine -line-border, but whether that it typical of this maker or just limited to the test gun is uncertain."

    Pat, you're to cover "handling." "Pointability" is worth at least a few sentences but keep in mind that every gun has more of it than most. How far the shells are ejected or simply extracted (both are advantages), the fact that the triggers are crisp if a little heavy for some tastes, that sort of thing - you know the drill.

    I've already written my contribution - bare bones so far but can be doubled, tripled depending on the space to be filled.

    "Tipping the scales at a recoil-taming eight-and-a-half pounds, the arm feels much lighter in the field due, no doubt, to the attention paid to refining its distribution of masses. That effort rewards the shooter with a balance point falling nicely between the hands and a shotgun he can carry all day without fatigue, over Pointers."

    Neil
     
  16. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    LMA off @ & with Neil!

    I'll hafta give thet a lil thunk then I'll giver a shot? BTW, I see you've read some of those same rags huh? :) Hap
     
  17. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    OK, I've thunked long enuff, here's my instructions to my editor for the year with my first gun test, "yellow box" insertions. :) Don't get mad at me guys, it's the rag writers creating all the myths making us believe. Hap

    Editor:


    Please note, this is gun test one for the month of January. It's one of the twelve I agreed to according to my contractual duties as a gun scribe. These are to be inserted in my absence over the coming months, I'll be fishing a few tourneys and will have my "Yellow Box" for professional carp aficionados also available for the coming year. Just insert the name_______,maker______ etc._____ in order of importance.

    With humble honor, its my pleasure testing this months best flavor of the month from the old country!

    The wood choice on this fine specimen tested was immaculate! (See pages four through eight for a pictorial of this fine species of eye candy) Centuries old and harvested with extreme care, take note of the detail in color and figure of this fine work of "art". The density of this wood is world renowned for it's ability to transfer the harmonics throughout the guns entirety! This fact alone will put the shooter in better harmony with the targets/game making this a real deal in the shotgunning world! Wood to metal fit is as good as it gets too! It's bolted on very securely, I might add, and that's considered a plus in any fine fowling piece. As this fine shotgun was tested on very fast moving targets, I found a slight over run in the hand cut checkering (the best of the best) to only slightly upset the balancing of this otherwise target/game getting machine.The metal chosen represents the best of the best also, it's _______, known world-wide as best in category for high end shotguns. (See the details in the pictorial on pages four through eight for more eye candy appeal) In closing, this new gun is totally unbelievable and a should have on anybody's want list of fine shotguns. If you have to ask the price, you may want to buy a used model 12 Winchester. See next months new gun test as more exciting news is coming your way! Yours in shotgunning truths.

    HappyNAZ

    To whom it may concern, if it don't concern you, pay no attention, it's cheaper! :)
     
  18. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Gordy- By more stable, do you mean more resistant to movement? Does this suggest we add some lead to our stocks.

    If I found a place to add some lead into my body, would I become more stable?

    Pat Ireland
     
  19. clay crusher

    clay crusher TS Member

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    This is interesting to read. Thanks to those who commented.


    Pat, dare we start a thread about balnce in relation to 7/8,1,1 1/8oz?


    Michael
     
  20. jnoemanh

    jnoemanh TS Member

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    Well...if balance point, or weight, or moment of inertia were really important, then we'd expect to find some agreement on which gun was "best", eh. All the top shooters would have found that, say, a Barzunni XP7, 8.25", 33" barrels, 73/27 POI is the ultimate.

    Doesn't work that way. The gun which I shoot at my best is unlikely the gun which someone else shoots best. Different strokes.

    The only way to know is to try different guns until you find one which just "feels right" and breaks targets.

    The carburetor guru John Pissani once said that, all theory aside, the only way to know which carby is best is to "suck it and see".

    Same with shotguns - "shoot it and see."
     
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