1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Automotive pensions Doomed....

Discussion in 'Off Topic Threads' started by chuckles, Nov 10, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. chuckles

    chuckles Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    945
    Location:
    Michigan
    I just recently heard a rumor that it was just a matter of time, like within 2 years and the Fed would be bailing out GM, Ford, Chrysler Pension funds for $.25 on the dollar and that it would be transfered down to all Pension holders......

    Hold on folks, turbulent air ahead......

    regards
     
  2. crusha

    crusha TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,762
    Nah, Obama will never let that happen.


    Republican policy has been to let Manufacturing in general, and Big 3 Automotive in particular, die on the vine. Tons of subsidies for farmers, bailouts for the banks, guaranteed customers for the pharmaceutical companies...but Manufacturing? Go suck an egg.


    So, the result is, in the Upper Midwest manufacturing states, you now have an unbroken line of Blue all the way from Maine to Minnesota, passing right through the lower Midwest and Great Lakes. Not even Indiana could break that line, this time. These people have not so much spited the Republicans, as felt abandoned by them. They realized they've been left to die by the Bush Administration, so they did the, unfortunately, logical thing in proletarian terms.


    But now...Now, is the coming of the Age of Aquarius. Obama will come into office, and with the merest gesture of his hand in the direction of the Auto Manufacturers, he will gain their trust, loyalty, and undying support, from the Board Room all the way down to the Break Room.


    And it really won't take that much for him to get it. The Republicans didn't want it, so now Obama will reach down on the ground and pick it up - and the Midwest will be Blue forever.


    (Then we turn our attention to "Amnesty," and turning the Southwest permanently Blue...but that's another story...)
     
  3. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    15,642
    Location:
    Green Bay Wisconsin
    Dead men keep no promises.

    Neither do dead companies.

    HM
     
  4. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2006
    Messages:
    4,226
    dont worry they will take your current 401k holders to fix that. Theres a on going problem I like a majority of people around me have not had a raise in 6 years, bills are up 35%. right now a 15k car seems very exspensive. Also now with a credit problem, well they are lending to only those that have ability to pay it back. Did all this happen when packard went under? Studabaker? ect ect. It seems to me if business is run poorly it shall not continue to run. How can any company afford to pay all its retired workers for 20+ years after they leave. Im sorry but BUSH 8 years did not do this. It is the past 50years of congress thats has done this. Especially the slobs who have been up there 30years. gm ford chrysler really missed the boat, not providing US marget with what they wanted. Affordable dependable vehicles, for petes sake GM had to run to Japs for a dependable 4cyl.......Chrysler has been in trouble for ever. Ford hmmmm whats wrong with them.......Onlt thing keeping me from buying a big 3 vehicle.....I work on them. There is a saying amongst us mechanics. Thanj god for GM Ford and Chrysler, we wouldnt have a job! Im scared also. The automotive industry is huge Huge HUGE. Many jobs to be lost. I do not see how Obama is going to deal with it, with out a Socialistic Commi type take over. Buy what you can now. Yellow or white cheese, baloni or salami. Dont know about you guys but my local stores are stocking less and less. Especially items from miles away.
     
  5. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    15,642
    Location:
    Green Bay Wisconsin
    1911, those pension funds were originally supposed to be self sustaining by investment as far as I know.

    As with any large amount of money, cheese attracts rats.

    HM
     
  6. 635 G

    635 G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    6,229
    Besides pensions, if any one of the big 3, goes bankrupt your vehicles warranty is doomed also, Deutsche Bank predicted yesterday that GM's common stock would soon be trading @ ZERO---this means close to 3 million more on the jobless roles & our economy will soon really be down the tubes.

    Lou
     
  7. tj303

    tj303 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    622
    Location:
    Ithaca, NY
    The government in its infinite wisdom allowed Big Business (big lobbyists) to have unfunded pension plans. So, no Dorothy, there is no piggy bank with pension dollars sitting in it. It is like Social Security, the money coming in today pays for the benefits of the retired. If no money comes in no money gets paid out. "I'll gladly take your labor today and make promises for you tomorrow"

    In reality what will happen is the Big Three will dump their pension plans on the government (taxpayer). "The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC) is a
    wholly owned government corporation that insures the
    pension benefits..." The PBGC then pays pennies on the dollar of promised benefits. The PBGC is grossly underfunded, its liabilities exceed its assets, so the taxpayers will have to pick up the short fall.

    A 2005 report on the PBGC.
    http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/66xx/doc6657/09-23-GuideToPBGC.pdf

    TJ
     
  8. JB Logan Co. Ohio

    JB Logan Co. Ohio TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,327
    Well it looks like our elected officials have been looking out for us again (not!). How long will this be able to be kept up? The Washington crowd sounds like a bunch of adolescants "I didn't do it!"

    JB=Jerry Beach 8503917
     
  9. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Messages:
    11,148
    There is still a market share that will hopefully roll over to companies making cars in the US, Toyota, Honda, etc. Those who wish to stay in automotive manufacturing will have to relocate, or find another job. Happens all the time.
    They've simply priced themselves out of the market, and have a huge retirement/benefit problem. Toyota and Honda aren't asking for bail out bucks.
     
  10. Bisi

    Bisi TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,399
    Do the math. There just isn't enough money. We can bitch, moan, and hold our breath but it just doesn't add up. The lesson here is you can't still be providing a check to someone who hasn't worked at the the company for 20 - 30 years, or even 1 or 2 years ago. The lesson is you have to be responsible for yourself, and really why should anyone else be responsible for you? You need to provide for your own retirement and health care. Look at the people most people entrust to provide for their well being. I wouldn't trust those people to feed my dog even if I left them the food to do it with. They would screw that up.

    Toyota's sales are down big time too. The thing is I heard there are less than a few dozen people in the US drawing retirement from Toyota. They can withstand a slow peroid. The big 3 are paying hundreds of thousands retirement and health care benefits.

    Social Security is in the same boat. In a few years they will be means testing it to see if you can receive any. If you saved and invested your money you ain't getting squat. Your neighbor who worked at the same place you do and made the same amount of money will receive it if he didn't save or invest. He will be rewarded for buying jets skis, ATVs, cigarettes, casino trips instead of saving and investing.
     
  11. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,680
    This isn't just an "Automotive" thing....

    A friend and fellow shooter has been advised by his union rep's (Millwrights) that his pension fund will be bankrupt in 4 to 7 years. He also was advised that the best he could hope for was to receive approx. $35 to $40 a month when he reaches 65-1/2 yrs. old.

    I advised him to get a cutthroat lawyer involved immediately and sue for his funds now.....nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    Curt
     
  12. chuckles

    chuckles Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    945
    Location:
    Michigan
    Food for thought....

    it cost GM, Ford, Chrysler Billions to finance the Unions Pensions....

    Billions out of Cash Flow...or Liquidity.

    GM-Ford-Chrysler can only sustain the outflow for a few more months at todays rate of Auto Sales...no sales- no profits- no cash flow-

    Even if the Fed bails them out it is a short term fix....

    GM & Chrysler will survive for maybe another 3 to 4 months as structured...

    Ford in much better shape but still confronted with massive cash outflows, mostly Pensions, Health, etc....

    Monthly Automotive burn rates cannot be sustained at present Auto Sales levels.

    Unfortunately it is as simple as that...

    Buckle up folks....

    regards
     
  13. chuckles

    chuckles Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    945
    Location:
    Michigan
    I just recently heard a rumor that it was just a matter of time, like within 2 years and the Fed would be bailing out GM, Ford, Chrysler Pension funds for $.25 on the dollar and that it would be transfered down to all Pension holders......

    Hold on folks, turbulent air ahead......

    regards
     
  14. crusha

    crusha TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,762
    Nah, Obama will never let that happen.


    Republican policy has been to let Manufacturing in general, and Big 3 Automotive in particular, die on the vine. Tons of subsidies for farmers, bailouts for the banks, guaranteed customers for the pharmaceutical companies...but Manufacturing? Go suck an egg.


    So, the result is, in the Upper Midwest manufacturing states, you now have an unbroken line of Blue all the way from Maine to Minnesota, passing right through the lower Midwest and Great Lakes. Not even Indiana could break that line, this time. These people have not so much spited the Republicans, as felt abandoned by them. They realized they've been left to die by the Bush Administration, so they did the, unfortunately, logical thing in proletarian terms.


    But now...Now, is the coming of the Age of Aquarius. Obama will come into office, and with the merest gesture of his hand in the direction of the Auto Manufacturers, he will gain their trust, loyalty, and undying support, from the Board Room all the way down to the Break Room.


    And it really won't take that much for him to get it. The Republicans didn't want it, so now Obama will reach down on the ground and pick it up - and the Midwest will be Blue forever.


    (Then we turn our attention to "Amnesty," and turning the Southwest permanently Blue...but that's another story...)
     
  15. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    15,642
    Location:
    Green Bay Wisconsin
    Dead men keep no promises.

    Neither do dead companies.

    HM
     
  16. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2006
    Messages:
    4,226
    dont worry they will take your current 401k holders to fix that. Theres a on going problem I like a majority of people around me have not had a raise in 6 years, bills are up 35%. right now a 15k car seems very exspensive. Also now with a credit problem, well they are lending to only those that have ability to pay it back. Did all this happen when packard went under? Studabaker? ect ect. It seems to me if business is run poorly it shall not continue to run. How can any company afford to pay all its retired workers for 20+ years after they leave. Im sorry but BUSH 8 years did not do this. It is the past 50years of congress thats has done this. Especially the slobs who have been up there 30years. gm ford chrysler really missed the boat, not providing US marget with what they wanted. Affordable dependable vehicles, for petes sake GM had to run to Japs for a dependable 4cyl.......Chrysler has been in trouble for ever. Ford hmmmm whats wrong with them.......Onlt thing keeping me from buying a big 3 vehicle.....I work on them. There is a saying amongst us mechanics. Thanj god for GM Ford and Chrysler, we wouldnt have a job! Im scared also. The automotive industry is huge Huge HUGE. Many jobs to be lost. I do not see how Obama is going to deal with it, with out a Socialistic Commi type take over. Buy what you can now. Yellow or white cheese, baloni or salami. Dont know about you guys but my local stores are stocking less and less. Especially items from miles away.
     
  17. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    15,642
    Location:
    Green Bay Wisconsin
    1911, those pension funds were originally supposed to be self sustaining by investment as far as I know.

    As with any large amount of money, cheese attracts rats.

    HM
     
  18. 635 G

    635 G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    6,229
    Besides pensions, if any one of the big 3, goes bankrupt your vehicles warranty is doomed also, Deutsche Bank predicted yesterday that GM's common stock would soon be trading @ ZERO---this means close to 3 million more on the jobless roles & our economy will soon really be down the tubes.

    Lou
     
  19. tj303

    tj303 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    622
    Location:
    Ithaca, NY
    The government in its infinite wisdom allowed Big Business (big lobbyists) to have unfunded pension plans. So, no Dorothy, there is no piggy bank with pension dollars sitting in it. It is like Social Security, the money coming in today pays for the benefits of the retired. If no money comes in no money gets paid out. "I'll gladly take your labor today and make promises for you tomorrow"

    In reality what will happen is the Big Three will dump their pension plans on the government (taxpayer). "The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC) is a
    wholly owned government corporation that insures the
    pension benefits..." The PBGC then pays pennies on the dollar of promised benefits. The PBGC is grossly underfunded, its liabilities exceed its assets, so the taxpayers will have to pick up the short fall.

    A 2005 report on the PBGC.
    http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/66xx/doc6657/09-23-GuideToPBGC.pdf

    TJ
     
  20. JB Logan Co. Ohio

    JB Logan Co. Ohio TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,327
    Well it looks like our elected officials have been looking out for us again (not!). How long will this be able to be kept up? The Washington crowd sounds like a bunch of adolescants "I didn't do it!"

    JB=Jerry Beach 8503917
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.