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Aussies at the Cardinal

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Aussie Dan, Aug 24, 2013.

  1. Aussie Dan

    Aussie Dan Member

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    Ok I haven't said anything prior but I will now, as I have seen enough.

    All of these guys from Australia competing at the Cardinal are friends/ acquaintances of mine and I know them all well. The last thing they are on this earth are cheats.

    They make the effort to travel all that way to compete at these events at the absolute best of their ability, and have done so from the day they stepped off the plane. A trip to the USA to shoot trap is the trip of the lifetime.

    Their scores show no attempt of sandbagging at all, just shoot what comes out and let everything sort itself out from there.

    Here are a couple of things I can verify from chatting to one of them.

    They turned up at the Cardinal shoot from the Grand with their handicap cards. The scores from the Grand were not uploaded to their cards when they were classified so they started to tell them but the desk wouldn't listen.

    Kim Nealon argued with the classification desk about his yardage and was told -"you aint in F#@kin Illinois now"- he was so taken back about that he didn't bother arguing any further.

    They were all embarrassed to be shooting from the grades and yardages. People don't travel half the world to shoot in D grade.

    Sam Peck asked to be taken out of D class after shooting 98 on Thursday and winning it and was told no. She then shot and won D grade again on Friday and was then reclassified to C grade.

    The desk did not want to listen to them. They claim the classification desk must have lied to the tournament director.

    the Grand American seems to have a penalty grading applied until you shoot a score to be classified- but for whatever reason nothing like that was ever suggested to them or asked of them at the cardinal.

    All of them are disappointed that everyone presumes they were cheating when they were doing nothing but the best they could do.

    Please guys take it easy on them as we are all saddened by the way this has made them look.

    Hopefully the most positives to come out of this is how international visitors are handled at your shoots as there are plenty of us that dream of heading over there to compete someday, but if you are going to get burned at the stake if there is a problem with your grading it certainly isn't that inviting.

    Regards, Dan
     
  2. Simon Engraving

    Simon Engraving Active Member

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    hearing the other side of this i think we can say our aussie shooters dont deserve to be treated like they want to fleece anybody out of anything. lack of communication. jmo howard
     
  3. 9point3

    9point3 Well-Known Member

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    We really have only heard one side of this issue and that is from the side of the boys from down under(not from them though) All the posts on the other thread are just speculation, I want to hear what went on in classification. I would really like to hear from the classifier himself but that isn't gonna happen
     
  4. Kerz

    Kerz Member

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    Interesting. Certainly hope the use of the profanity didn't happen, no excuse for it. My response to the situation would've been a bit more dynamic, had I been in the Aussie’s shoes.
    Yes, I would also be most interested in both sides of the story. I've shot NRA HP with several Aussie friends over the years. A great bunch and always look forward to seeing them at Camp Perry. BTW never had any classification problems.

    Vic
     
  5. illusion

    illusion TS Member

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    Thank you Aussie Dan, and Shame on the classifier and anyone "ELSE" that this matter was brought to there attention and did NOTHING!!

    I will not attend another shoot there till they get there act together, this is BULL....
     
  6. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    If the facts are as stated above, that is very sad. One thing that stands out, and it could be partly because of inexperience w our system, is the part of the grand scores "not being uploaded". They may not have even had real soft cards depending on when they joined Ata, but should have substitute cards.

    Scores are required to be written on the card, or a temporary card, the computer is technically meaningless and is only an additional input used in classification. The properly completed card is what matters. Plus, the card, for the junior at least, has to be punched to the 26 before he left the grand. Did they show any paper cards at Cardinal?

    Sounds like the yardage from the other association that should have been applied was missed at Brittany, the AIM Championships, and at Cardinal. I understand this is a difficult rule for a classifier tO determine, but when it is clearly pointed out at the desk, why are no changes made?

    We certainly don't know all the facts at this point, but serious mistakes were certainly made.


    The inferences of the classifier having a bit of an attitude and the other claim of actual threats is another issue, that certainly could be coming into play with Cardinal not making any changes even after possible errors are pointed out?
     
  7. Aussie Dan

    Aussie Dan Member

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    All valid points mr 870.

    Like I said before I have only had brief messages about what has happened and will update this thread as more are passed on but the most clearly visible thing is that the Aussies aren't totally to blame as some on the other thread were suggesting.

    These people are guests in your country and at your shoots and when they question the organisers and are put in their place its understandable that they didn't push it further.
     
  8. Aussie Dan

    Aussie Dan Member

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    I asked the question- what happened to your handicap cards? And below was the reply-

    "We offered to show them and they didn't care. The scores from the grand were not uploaded to our cards when we classified so we told them but they wouldn't listen!!!!"
     
  9. yakimaman

    yakimaman Well-Known Member

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    Well, that makes me feel like shit. My apologies to our friends from down under for any dispersions I may have cast on them. Good on ya, mates for trying to do the right thing. Looks like all this goes back to someone on the Classification desk.
     
  10. Aussie Dan

    Aussie Dan Member

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    As sportspeople who have travelled half way around the world why would they want to come home and tell all their friends they won D grade or a handicap off 19 Mtrs?

    There is no sence to it!
     
  11. macaw8

    macaw8 TS Member

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    dan hi when i went to the cardinal centre last year we also had that problem off not being put in the right grade. Two off us were put into the right grade and handicap and the young guy with us was put into b grade in singles after shooting aaa scores all week at the grand
    cheers gary kelly
     
  12. Doughboy

    Doughboy Member

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    Aussie Dan,
    Your 110% right...you're all owed an apology! You attempted to do the right thing and shoot management acted unprofessional and disrespectful. Unfortunately we all keep putting up with negative blasphemy from a few Ohio ATA Shooters that feel the sun rises and sets for them. All I can say is, "if that thought gets them through the day". Keep shooting, enjoy yourselves, and quit reading the BS of other people's opinions!

    THANKS for making the trip to the US, please enjoy the remainder of your stay!

    Kurt Armstrong
     
  13. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    "We offered to show them and they didn't care. The scores from the grand were not uploaded to our cards when we classified so we told them but they wouldn't listen!!!!"

    This still comes under shooters responsibility the shooter is the person that is responsible for uploading the scores to there cards not the ATA.

    Bob Lawless
     
  14. Aussie Dan

    Aussie Dan Member

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    Sorry bob the fact that the scores were not uploaded was actually irrelivent as from the first sentence says, 'we offered to show them and they didn't care' so their cards were not considered.
     
  15. yakimaman

    yakimaman Well-Known Member

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    I had along conversation with Brad Dysinger this morning. The Aussie shooters were given plastic cards at the Grand but no paper cards, and of course their scores were not in the computers used by the classification desk at the time they signed in at Cardinal.
     
  16. TEXASZEPHYR

    TEXASZEPHYR Member

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    Like so many shoots, sounds like they were going by the computer data from ATA.
    I cannot understand why the classifier was too lazy to look at their cards. I have never had any problem with a classifier when they looked at my overall average, and telling them that they ought to look at my last 6 to 8 entries on my card and having them move me up a class after being in a slump from the first part of the target year. T. Hunter has done this for me several times. Shooting in bad weather can adversely affect your early scores.
    This seems to be a big classifier error. and the responsibility of the TD to get the mess straightened out immediately says lots about the way the shoot is being run. Two guys in Nevada got overly severe punishment laid upon them for a whole lot less of an infraction. I think these facts should be used in their upcoming court battle.
     
  17. likes-to-shoot

    likes-to-shoot Well-Known Member

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    That still doesn't excuse the fact that they told them the proper scores and yardage, which in turn would have had them placed in the proper groups. The shooters upheld their responsibility of informing the shoot management as per ATA rules.
     
  18. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    So what is normal Classification procedure at Trap events when a shooter fails to produce an average card? I know around here gets you penalty class and yardage.


    I still see a chain of events that should have never happened. It is also still the responsibility of the shooter to maintain their average card. Temporary average cards are available at every shoot I've attended. Since the folks at the Grand failed to do their part in providing an average card, the classifier at Cardinal should have given the shooters one and had them fill it out before classifying the shooters. Who does Classification at Cardinal?

    I apologize to the shooters I accused of cheating but I still stand behind my statements that they should have known the rules and insisted on an average card.
     
  19. mette56

    mette56 Well-Known Member

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    I met several Aussies at the Grand and talked at length with them. Some at great length. If there has been a mistake, a visiting Aussie would be the last one I'd blame...period. The Aussies I talked with not only were of the highest caliber, but interested in improving the shooting sports and voiced potential financial support to effect improvement. No talk of winning, taking...only appreciation of an opportunity.

    I don't believe anyone who has voiced an opinion on either thread is wrong in their questioning. Yak, you were right to question procedures. Hopefully shoot management will set this all straight.

    Thanks to Aussies attending the Grand, the Cardinal and for visiting America. And thanks to all foreign interests who have been of support to the ATA.


    Some in this country want to tear down the ATA. That wouldn't be an Aussie or any foreigner...IMO. Go to the Grand, meet foreigners, talk with them...I have for 40 plus years...never met one that didn't become a freind, never met one that was a taker...all were true competitors and damned glad to be in America and to be at what the ATA has created, a true world championship!

    milt & Jimette Palasota

    PS, Jimette was invited to shoot on a squad from S. Africa for several years at Vandalia. You never met a human more fun, outgoing, honest than this group of four. We have invited some of the Aussie contingency to Linn Creek for the Fall Hdcp or MO State Shoot and to stay with us in our home. Hope they do!!!
     
  20. 635 G

    635 G Well-Known Member

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    I'm eating a huge portion of crow right now, sorry of accusing these shooters of sandbaging,

    Phil Berkowitz