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Aurora Shooting

Discussion in 'Politics, Elections & Legislation' started by Franktri, Jul 21, 2012.

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  1. Franktri

    Franktri Member

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    This episode is a black eye for the legitimate people who own and use guns for atarget, amusement, etc. BUT, imagine this: if people had an easier way to obtain carry permits, maybe, just maybe, someone could have put a bullet between this bastard's eyes before he could do damage!!
     
  2. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Colorado has a "must issue" policy for CCW.

    You have take a 3 hour class and demonstrate you can use the weapon by placing a group in pie plate size target.

    Then you go to the sheriff's office fill out an application, take a quz, get finger printed,mug shot and that is all their is to it.

    If you have a criminal history or are a walking idiot, you won't get it, otherwise you will.

    Problem in this episode is you still cannot take a firearm onto private property if that is the policy of the owner as was the case of the movie theater chain. This policy also includes football, baseball, hockey, basketball stadiums and other places like these for obivious reasons.
     
  3. timberfaller

    timberfaller Well-Known Member

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    If you go into a "gun free" zone and it is posted as such, You, Enter at your own risk!!

    Shootings like this, if the shooter doesn't shoot themselves, GET 3 squares a cot and free health care for the rest of their lives! No sweat off their backs!!
     
  4. bcnu

    bcnu Active Member

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    I have been carrying for way longer than it has been legal here in Missouri. My wife used to think it was a bit silly to carry in a restraunt and such. She always used to say, do you really think it is necessary to carry in Mexican Villa? My reply has always been the same, the first time one goes somewhere without is the first time you will need it. As all of you know, a firearm is useless if it is in the car or at home and you are not. In Missouri, the ccw rule is that the business can ask you to leave. Of course that would mean that you have not learned what the first c stands for in ccw. With the exception of a court house and a police department, I have and will be armed. She don't say much about it anymore because she watches the news. I live in a pretty nice area right in the middle of town and about two weeks ago there were human remains found right at the end of our street, less than two blocks from my house. Now she understands. I look at myself as a sheepdog and not a sheep. Be careful, the beast is out and he is hungry. John
     
  5. Traders

    Traders Well-Known Member

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    Rick: If you were right that the problem in "this episode" is that you can't take a weapon onto private property if the owner doesn't want you too, then the nut who shot Gabrielle Giffords would be dead because there was no reason some CCW holder in the audience wouldn't have shot him. He got off plenty of rounds, hitting 18 other people, before he was stopped. You can be sure that many people in the crowd were carrying. "Someone could have put a bullet between this bastard's eyes before he could do damage!!"

    Also, what is the "obvious reason" you can't take firearms into various sports arenas?

    I think you are undervaluing the training that LEO's and other security people get to respond to shootings and the desire for most individuals to first protect themselves and others close to them.

    Timberfeller: Seems to me that you are suggesting that if somebody goes into a "gun free zone"", that this person bears some responsibility if they get shot.
     
  6. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    Traders, being a former LEO myself, even I doubt I would have taken a shot in a smoke filled, dark, noisy theater, filled with a lot of kids and a full panic situation.

    I was not there, just as you and many others were not

    I was responding to another post on this thread and others where people think if a CCW person was in this theater could have stopped this. Well maybe, maybe not. What I was pointing out was CCW people for the most part obey the law there fore they don't carry where it is posted, no firearms allowed on the premises.

    Also being a State of Colorado Police Firearms instructor, you can imagine what I THINK of your stupid ramblings.
     
  7. Traders

    Traders Well-Known Member

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    Rick,

    What, specifically, is it that I said that you disagree with. Which particular:" stupid ramblings". And, what is the "obvious reason", other than the requirements of the venue owners, that people can't bring guns into sports arenas. My guess is that many people reading this post would also like to know.

    If you choose to reply, please use my statements in quotes so that I, and others, can be sure to clearly understand what you object too.

    Please try to be civil. "Stupid ramblings" is really on the edge.
     
  8. bcnu

    bcnu Active Member

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    It would be a very tough target at best. Hundreds of people running every which way, the back ground. I would think it would be extremely difficult to get off a shot safely. Actually, more like impossible. Still though, it would be better to have that option. If he were to be standing right next to you, then maybe. No more training than most have, I would say it would be a very tough and personal call.

    And the whole notion os enstalling metad detectors is beyond rideculious. Even this shooter went out the BACK door to retreive his guns before the rampage started. All that a metal detector would do is to make sure that all the law abiding citizens were unarmed. John
     
  9. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    When you said I undervalue LEO training.........idiot!
     
  10. slowdp

    slowdp TS Member

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    I still think it better to carry than not to carry. Yes, it would have been hard to hit the guy in the crowd with the tear gas smoke but a try would have been better than not.

    It is also understandable that you take your life into your own hands when you enter a gun free zone as a law abiding citizen without a gun. A gun free zone is the perfect place for a nut to let loose. Then again, you take your life into your own hands every time you leave the house or open the door to the house.

    Any business that declares his business gun free should be required to provide around the clock police protection on site because it is a gun free zone.

    I am not in favor of disarming the US but we may be out numbered and suffer for it. Do what you can to keep the right of free people to own and carry arms.
     
  11. Traders

    Traders Well-Known Member

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    Rick: I understand that it must be very hard for you to keep this exchange on a civil level, but in my experience calling people "stupid" and "idiot" is rarely a successful way to win a debate or even bring someone to an understanding of your point of view. It generally indicates a lack of knowledge on the part of the speaker or that the speaker knows he has made a mistake or is wrong.

    As an aside, I value professional security training very highly and certainly understand that CCW or not, trained security people or not, etc. there may have been nothing that could be done under current laws to prevent this "episode" from occurring. My guess is that on this issue, we are both on the same page.
     
  12. John Galt

    John Galt TS Member

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    I think traders posts were reasonable and, although one might not agree with them, it doesn't follow that the gentleman is "stupid" or an "idiot". Only liberals deserve such labels IMO.
     
  13. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I avoid businesses that ban concealed carry.

    They may think this protects their customers, but in reality it tells the criminals that there are unarmed or disarmed citizens that they can prey on without much risk.

    It also suggests that the business might be frequented by people who are prone to violent activity, like gang bangers.

    As for "police training", the fact is that in actual shootings private citizens hit their targets using on average with far fewer rounds fired than the police. The police did a far better job with accuracy back in the days when they were commonly issued revolvers.
     
  14. Rick Barker

    Rick Barker Well-Known Member

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    I am not trying to win any debate.


    I was trying to explain something and you question my valuation of police and security training.


    You don't know me, so don't be stupid and try to speak for me.
     
  15. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    This guy was dressed in full SWAT gear including bullet proof garments. You think that some CCW carrier could kill this guy without killing others around him in this environment. That is wishful thinking. In this case, if you want to be a hero, you are better off running up behind this quack, tackling him to the ground, and beating him to death! After the initial knockdown, I am sure there would be others close behind to assist in the beating. At minimum if a CCW carrier was legally allowed in the crowd, he should have knocked him down, then put a bullet in his head, or neck, knowing that the shot would be going down into the concrete.
     
  16. rpeerless

    rpeerless Well-Known Member

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    While I agree with Stl Flyn, I think people in the audience were trying to get a read of what was going on. Was it part of the show? Is this real? Then what to do fight or flee or take cover...Could be the killer was spinning like a top and not giving any opportunties for knock down.
     
  17. KS5SPECIAL

    KS5SPECIAL Member

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    Another shooting in a gun free zone, the news reports will never say that.
    Gun laws are stupid, they promote this kind of thing ,we'd be safer if there weren't any laws on carry .
    The theater should be sued for having a gun free zone and not providing security.
    I heard the Police say they were there in under 2 minutes, about a minute too late.
    When seconds count there only minutes away.
    I agree that would have likely been very difficult to stop this even if someone was carrying concealed vs what the shooter had and how he was equipped. I don't believe the average ccw holder could have done much but will never know as ccw holders generally follow the Law,unlike the criminals in our society.
    A person would have to be pretty highly skilled in a situation like this,unfortunately most are not. Again, only speculating.
     
  18. JH

    JH Well-Known Member

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    No question, Brian....I can outshoot all the troopers I hang around with....and all the active military too!.....
     
  19. John Galt

    John Galt TS Member

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    Sir, your humility is inspiring.
     
  20. JH

    JH Well-Known Member

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    Johnnie.....as Ali said: "If you can do it, it ain't bragging".....

    Seriously, most law enforcement and active military folks I know have not had the opportunity to hone superior skills....I am sure they could develop the skills if given the opportunity.......

    How is the Australian trap team doing?
     
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