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Attn Neil Winston

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by mad frank, Apr 28, 2008.

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  1. mad frank

    mad frank TS Member

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    Hi Neil,

    A couple of months back you had mentioned that you were going to do some patterning using 7/8 ounce loads. I realize that you are quite busy, but was wondering if you have had found the time to do this? I myself, and I'm sure others would be interested to hear the results. Just from what little testing I have done myself, it appears that if I stay within a velocity of about 1250 fps I cannot get my outer fringe pattern diameter to exceed 24" which in turn translates into more careful and precise shooting. The patterns I shot were at 30 yards using a stock, fixed full choke barrel. It also seems that by increasing the velocity to open the pattern slightly, leaves me with some rather large holes. Have you or anyone experienced the same results?

    Frank Maglin
     
  2. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Frank, since you asked "if others" I'll stick my two cents in here.

    If your getting an evenly distributed 24" diameter pattern at 30 yards feel fortunate. THats not bad with a true full choke. Personally I would rather have that than a 26" ragged pattern.
     
  3. mad frank

    mad frank TS Member

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    Thanks for your reply Pheasantmaster. I kind of figured that 24" diameter pattern is going to be about as good as it gets.
     
  4. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Try following this formula, the smaller the payload the tighter the choke that is needed to get good results. HMB
     
  5. Tripod

    Tripod Well-Known Member

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    I am in the process of using 7/8 ounce of #8 1/2 shot with my powder charge of 16.4 700X. Its been pretty windy when I have shot and I didn't pattern, but I am getting good breaks with my old fixed full choke Remington 1100. I am going to try to stick with it this year and see how it goes. No recoil at all and I love shooting them. They also work great at skeet!
     
  6. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Neil had planned on doing that test at the Spring Grand in Tucson. Evening winds prevented the test.

    I do pattern my loads during hard winds to see how wind effects the shotstring at various yardages. It's possible to entirely miss a 4X4 ply-wood frame covered with stapled cardboard during hard crosswind gusts. I'm talking hard blowing winds, not mild breezes but even a 10 mph breeze will drift the load a few inches at 40 yards. Hap
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Frank, at 30 yards you will never get - assuming you are using a "trap-appropriate" choke - much over a couple of feet of coverage. But that's not due to 7/8 in my opinion; it's just the way patterns are.

    To ensure year-to-year comparability I do my patterning when it's warm, in the 70's at least, since air density is a huge factor.

    I have the shells and I'm ready, but first I'd like to explain that I look at this as my first test of "wad effects," not 7/8 oz. per se. Though a year seems to have been sadly lost in the server problems, I once posted a test in which 1 and 1 1/8 loads at various speeds had the same pattern percentage (but not the same pellet count, of course.) I expect no different from 7/8 oz. but we'll see.

    Since 1 1/8 loads of 7 1/2's work from the 16 and there are more pellets in 7/8 oz of 8 1/2's than the former, I don't anticipate any bad new whatever. Patterning will not, however, tell us if a single 8 1/2 will break a target as a single 7 1/2 must, so that's still a judgement call. There's no reason to think you need a tighter choke with smaller payloads, since as in the current example, you can more than compensate with shot-size.

    It's a wad test because I finally have a very specific prediction, posted here, about the difference in two wads in the STS once-fired hulls I am using. Expect results in a month or so.

    Neil
     
  8. mad frank

    mad frank TS Member

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    Thanks for your reply Neil. I have been doing a little experimentation which I came about by accident. After patterning several 7/8 oz loads, I noticed what appeared to be a change in my POI. I first fired 10 shells using a STS hull, Fiocchi 616 primer, 17 gr of 700X, and a Fed 12SO wad. The pattern on all 10 shells appeared to look quite typical(at 13 yards my full choked barrel shoots 1-1/4" above POA). I then patterned 10 shells with the same components except this time I used 17.5 gr of Clays. My patterns at 30 yds were all above the horizontal center line of the circle. This prompted me to check POI with this load. At 13 yds using a rest I was 3" above my POA. I really don't see how this could be possible and am going to perform the tests again as soon as the winds die down. Is it possible that a different powder could change POI or could it be my testing?

    Frank Maglin
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Frank, I can't attribute your finding of different POI's to powder. Or shot speed either, since I tested X-tra Lites and Handicap shells and they shot about the same, vertically, off a rest.

    I see there's a thread about POI testing I'll get to in a minute. I plan to stress there the importance of many test shots over at least a couple of days. Over that period I'd plan to shoot about a box of shells and write down the result of every shot. Then I call the POI the "modal" result, that is, the one that shows up most often.

    I'll be interested in your retest. In my notebook I also note the "sight picture" I was using that day. When I first start shooting, even in an event, I'm a bit higher over the gun than I am later in the day. Therefore, when I can, I shoot a couple of rounds paying attention to what I see, then try to reproduce it at the bench.

    How did those 7/8 loads look at 30 yards? Enough pellets?

    Neil
     
  10. mad frank

    mad frank TS Member

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    Okay Neil, I tried two different tests, firing 5 rounds at 13 yds for POI only and then 10 rounds at 30 yds to see what the pattern and pellet count looked like. On the POI patterns I used a rest and my average was 1.5" above my POA. Now for the 30 yd patterning I have some patterns that print what I would consider normal 60/40 for my gun ; however, I also have 4 patterns that print 90% of the pellets above the center horizontal line, and these are the loads with 17.3 gr of Clays powder. I'm not sure why, perhaps its me. As for pellet count I used no. 8 shot, my patterns barely reached 22" in diameter. I drew a 10" circle, and then a 20" circle around that and then a 24" circle around it. 700X result average was 4 pellets in the outer ring, 103 pellets in the 10" : 20" circle and 241 in the 10" center, a rather tight pattern. With Clays, I had 5 in the outer, 126 in the 10":20" and 207 in the center, a bit more open, bit not much. I would like to repeat my tests increasing the velocity to about 1300 and see if anything changes.

    Frank Maglin
     
  11. GEORGE oldboy

    GEORGE oldboy TS Member

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    Gentlemen,the first movement a gun barrel makes when fired is below the point of aim. then it comes up and down etc till it is done vibrating from the forces of the detonation of shell.The heavier the powder charge the more the barrel dips.A single barrel will really move more than an o/u.Try an super lite vs a 3 dramer you will see.See you at the state shoot Neil, your friend,George J.
     
  12. EXFDX

    EXFDX Member

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    Mr. Jacobson, can you point me to some research or data? I just Googled "Barrel Vibration" and got some interesting stuff on rifle barrels, but anything about shotgun barrels?

    Thanks,

    Steve
     
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