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Att: Barrel Freezing Tech & Disbelievers.....

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by BL350, Feb 22, 2008.

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  1. BL350

    BL350 TS Member

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    This is my first attempt to answer some of the barrel freezing comments. I will try to explain this relatively new (circa 1960's) "heat treating" process. Low temperature thermal heat treating had some beginnings in Jet engine ball bearing development. It really is propietary (trade secret) to the industries that have to provide components used in high temp. applications. Low temp. thermal heat treating in liquid nitrogen (minus 320 F) removes the last small percentage of a retained highly stressed metalic phase that a stress relief cycle (At approx 900F) cannot remove in high hardness alloy metals. This process prevents PERMANENT physical dimemsional change in components used in high temp. enviroments (400F) I didn't believe in this until we conducted tests. A 1 inch hole in a heat treated 440C alloy part would actually grow approx. .001 inches after a 24 hour soak at 400F. That is after bringing the part back to room TEMPERATURE.......NOW lets try to bring this all to the present. This low temp. technique is now in the hallowed halls of ASTM publications. Will it work on Shotgun barrels???? Rifle barrels???? The NRA did a very good test a few years ago on low temp. treated barrels, but didn't come up with any better results. I know it works for specific applications. The NASCAR teams are using this process on everything that is heat treated, valve springs, valves, trans gears, rear end gears. They believe that they are getting a longer fatique life. These are the last people in the USA that have the research dollars to support and develop new processes and its applications. ......Will it do any good on a TM-1 barrel that I just bought from MIA??? I really don't know, because I am not going to cut it up for metallurgical structure examination!!! I wish someone like B.B. or Don M. would investigate this to a better degree. That,s all for now......Respectfully submitted....and heading for blast bunker!! Jet Boat Bill
     
  2. Ken X

    Ken X TS Member

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    We are not shooting a very fast bullet through an extremely tight barrel with extremely high pressure. We are throwing a bunch of BB's relatively slow down a big fat pipe! This cryo-freezing of shotgun barrels has to be some of the biggest bunch of bunk thrown at us extremely gullible americans who will buy almost ANYTHING if it is advertised right.
     
  3. code5coupe

    code5coupe Member

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    I have extensively discussed cryo treating with the Metallurgist in our Lab at work ( GKN Aerospace). This gentleman has a Ph.D. in Metallurgy and has written papers on cryogenics for the ASME.
    He says that cryo is of some benefit for certain aluminum alloys and some cast irons. He says no benefit has been proven for steels as yet. Doesn't mean they aren't there, just that they haven't been able to qualify/quantify by any of the normal metalurgical tests.
    My opinion, and his apparently, is that gun barrels do not benefit from cryogenic thermal treating...but that they aren't harmed, either.

    The only folks who will present complementary reports of cryo'ing steel seem to be the same folks who are trying to sell you this process. Unbiased, third-parties are saying "the jury is still out".

    Lots of folks pay top dollar to have this done. All I can say is "It's your money, and it doesn't hurt anything as long as the vendor doesn't drop the part(s) as they are coming out of the tank ". :)
     
  4. Bruce Specht

    Bruce Specht Well-Known Member

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    I have been to a presnetation of freezing by 300 below. This was for automtovie and truck parts I'm not convinced that there are any real benifits.
     
  5. Steve NJ

    Steve NJ Member

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    Jim's stocking up on turkeys to give away with his barrel freezing service.

    I am in the Tool & Die business and work with steel every day. I have had some of my precision tools deep frozen before finish grinding to relieve stress in the hardened pieces that would cause them to move after finishing. One piece in particular is a angle plate I made and ground and is square and parallel within .0001 of an inch. I ground this that close 25 years ago and it is exactly the same today as it was then. This piece is hardened to 60 Rc.

    I am convinced it works for stress relief, I am not convinced it changes molecular structure of the steel. I have spoke with my heat treater about this after reading the sales pitch on here for shotgun barrels. He laughed and said "you know better then that"!! I did but had to ask.
     
  6. alfermann66

    alfermann66 Member

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    My single bbl. sandbagged and fired from 25 yds using new STS light 8's shot 9" high and 4" left when cold. When hot it shot 8" high centered over the poa. After it was cryoed it shot 8" high and centered hot or cold. You "brain surgeons" try to explain that.

    Buz
     
  7. Dennis DeVault

    Dennis DeVault Well-Known Member

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    Cyro freezing is not a new process, if you look in any Machinest Handbook the process is very well explained. For years it was used as a means of stress releiving metals to stabalize metal so that it doesn't move during final machining. I was taught this process when I went through my apprentiship working at the Timken Roller Bearing Co. I can tell you that the freezing method that we did at the Timken Co. is very different from what any conventional heat treater can tell you can done. The process does in fact change molecular grain structure as you can read in the Handbook. I started using this process back in 1992 when I first built the MachOne's. I can tell you that the process that we use here is very different than what you will ever find available anywhere in the world. I have spaoken to commercial heat treaters around the company and have been told that we are crazy and the method we use cannot be done. I guess don't know any better becasue we have been doing it here for over 15 years and it does work. Hpye, urban legend, I can only speak from knowledge and first hand experience. Just my 2 cents worth.

    Dennis DeVault
     
  8. BL350

    BL350 TS Member

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    Thank you Alf...66 and Dennis Devault for your support. Dennis,I used to compare tech. notes with some of tech guys @ Timken during the 70's, 80's & 90's. They certainly knew the technology and Timken still makes the finest taper roller bearings in the world. And yes, I hunted far and wide recently, paid more money, to obtain a front wheel unitized bearing assembly (from Timken)for my 2003 Tahoe. .........And to Code5 Coupe........Tell your PHD metallurgist to look a little harder and read. I can understand a quick answer from "educated people" I have learned from 40 years of failure analysis and laboratory testing that you should never stop learning.......and the same principles apply to trap shooting and target quality guns.......Jet Boat Bill
     
  9. dalemartin

    dalemartin TS Member

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    Well I think you all have it wrong. I am going to cryro my stock to make it better, the heck with the barrel, it seems to be fine already.
     
  10. Dennis DeVault

    Dennis DeVault Well-Known Member

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    Jet Boat Bill,

    The problem with all this technology is that it is dying with the older guys that have retired. Before I left the company I saw more than one guy leave and was restricted from passing on the knowlwdge that they learned over a life time of work. I have worked on several projects through the years that involved the freezing process and last year I was contacted by a guy in China that asked if I would pass my knowledge of the radical freezing process to them. Thus far I have refused to give this knowledge unless it was going to be to a stateside company. To much of what we know here is being given away and the money just doesn't seem that important to me right now.

    Dennis DeVault
     
  11. Bob Schultz

    Bob Schultz Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Just a sidebar here. Dennis' barrels will pattern better than just about any barrels I have had the opportunity to test. Choke constriction being equal they exhibit less "flyers" and tighter yet even patterns. I have no earthly idea why ... other than the quality of the bore and the cryo process he uses on the guns. Ask anyone who shoots a Mach-One or Infinity and they generally will be shooting less choke to achieve the same result.

    Bob Schultz
     
  12. ysr_racer

    ysr_racer Active Member

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    It works great on crankshafts, if that helps.
     
  13. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I have a general question. Very low temperature does seem to relieve some stress points in metal. This could keep a crank shaft from breaking but how would relieving stress help a shotgun barrel. I can see how it could help if the metal was treated before final machining, but what about a barrel that was already machined and fit to a gun.

    I am not challenging anyone's opinion. I would just like to understand more about this process. There are two opinions expressed above from two very knowledgeable individuals(Dennis D. / Bob S.).

    Pat Ireland
     
  14. HOT-HAMMER

    HOT-HAMMER TS Member

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    I have owned a rifle in the past, that when the barrell got hot POI would change as much as 5"@ 100 yds. I put up with this because the first 3 shots would make a ragged hole. It was a lite-weight barrel, but no way near as lite weight as a shot-gun barrel. This past summer my shot-gun barrel got extremly hot while shooting, has anyone tested how much the POI changed @ 45 yds. with a hot thin wall shot-gun barrel? and whould a cyro fair better?...thanks Rick
     
  15. HOT-HAMMER

    HOT-HAMMER TS Member

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    sorry buz, I did not see your post untill after I posted...Rick
     
  16. Hauxfan

    Hauxfan Well-Known Member

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    Here is my 2 cents worth.

    I sent in a Perazzi barrel to have treated. It never discolored the rib or the barrel.

    I don't know if it patterned better or not as I failed to do a before and after pattern.

    But I do know that barrel was one heck of a lot easier to clean the plastic out of it.

    That really surprised me and it made me think that something happened so that the plastic going through the choke could not adhere to it as much.

    Hauxfan!
     
  17. Dennis DeVault

    Dennis DeVault Well-Known Member

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    Pat,

    For me, I cannot write down that much info. I can only tell you that all the information is in the machinest handbook and this knowledge for me came by working at the Timken Company for 5 years and being in contact with metallurgist, engineers, and doing the process myself for over a year. I know this doesn't answer your specific question but it's the best that I can do. I consider myself very lucky to have had the opportunity to learn a very diverse trade that has served me well through the years.

    Dennis DeVault
     
  18. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    "My single bbl. sandbagged and fired from 25 yds using new STS light 8's shot 9" high and 4" left when cold. When hot it shot 8" high centered over the poa. After it was cryoed it shot 8" high and centered hot or cold. You "brain surgeons" try to explain that."

    You discovered "stress relief" and there are cheaper processes that would have accomplished the same thing.

    Morgan
     
  19. Timber1

    Timber1 TS Member

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    Hey Dennis.......tell them all about that double arc revac steel in your barrels! PS Call me when you get a chance, I've got the wood ready. Wait untill you see this!!
     
  20. jim brown

    jim brown Well-Known Member

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    See what did I tell you guys??? Don't worry I haven't gone out of business I have just been on an extended trip to Arizona this winter. The warm weather out here caused some of my turkeys to thaw out so I have been working as a vendor at the Spring Grand selling turkey sandwiches. Now that I have solved that problem I am looking forward to getting back to freezing shotguns and getting those peskey little stress guys out of there. Everybody knows a Brown treated barrel shoots better, cleans easier and doubles as a jack handle in an emergency. Not only that but as soon as my new shipment comes in you will get a free turkey with every treatment.

    Cryo Jim Brown
     
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