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ata trap versus

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Cynergytrap, Mar 16, 2011.

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  1. Cynergytrap

    Cynergytrap TS Member

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    Curious, what is the difference between an ATA trap combo gun versus a bunker trap gun??

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Ifitfliesitdies

    Ifitfliesitdies Member

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    You should have an o/u for bunker as you're allowed 2 shots at each target. Targets are twice as fast, twice the angles high, low, and either side. Plus you're only allowed to shoot 24grams (7/8 oz) of shot. So you might well need 2 shots/target. At one time you weren't allowed to shoot a ported barrel but I think that rule has changed. I don't shoot ported barrels anymore so I don't know for sure.

    It's a great game! ATA should have bunker events too. After all it is Trap.

    It's a lot of fun, enjoy.

    Tom
     
  3. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    A combo gun has a single barrel for singles and handicap events and an O/U barrel for doubles. A bunker gun is a flat shooting O/U. HMB
     
  4. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    What hmb said. And to clarify the first post, Bunker targets aren't twice as fast and the angles aren't twice as wide as ATA. Faster and wider, yes, but not twice.
     
  5. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    let me tell you about my friend Mike Herman. An outstanding bunker shooter... One of the best in this country. Since he retired he has been using his Perazzi bunker gun at ATA events. the gun is a typical bunker gun. 29.5". OU choked about .25 and .35. flat rib. he has done a perfect 300, Took the Leadville purse for a 100 from the 27 and I hear he recently won of of the events in Tucson.

    It ain't the arrow but the indian.

    Tom
     
  6. PerazziBigBore

    PerazziBigBore TS Member

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    While I am humble before Tom's knowledge of bunker.. one of the most important things is a dynamic.. well balanced gun.. Most bunker guns are in the low 8 pound class.. not the 9 pounds plus most American trap shooters use.. If you can't get to the target.. you can't hit it...
     
  7. Ifitfliesitdies

    Ifitfliesitdies Member

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    870,

    Just FYI - Here according to the rule books are the facts. I've also set both ATA and ISSF targets.


    The ISSF Target must travel 76 Meters + or -1 Meter or 89 to 90 yards. (The speed required to get to this distance varies but can be anywhere from 77-90 mph or more.) (A good practice facility will throw targets 100 meters and at speeds between 90 - 100 mph depending upon target height as lower targets require more speed to reach distance.) The Targets are set at 10 meters, the LOW TARGETS must be 1.5 meters (4.9Feet) high and the High Targets 3.5 Meters (11.48 ft.)

    The ISSF angle left and right of center IS 45 Degrees.

    The bunker or trap house for the international game is level with the ground because if the "low" target was thrown from an ATA trap house you would never see it if it were straight away until it cleared the house because it is traveling only 4.1ft above the ground.

    The ISSF Target is shorter and slightly larger (ATA 108mm, ISSF 110mm) It is also considerably Harder as it has to withstand a much harder push from the trap arm. An International Bunker machine properly set for distance will not throw a Standard ATA/NSSA/NSCA target it will crush it.

    The ATA Target is set at 10 yards and all targets are set between 8 & 10 Feet. Targets must travel 50 yards. The speed would relate to between 37-42 MPH.
    The ATA Angle left and right of center is 22 Degrees.

    So when I was taught math 77Mph is more than twice 37mph and 45 degrees is more than twice 22 Degrees.

    If you don't believe me, post your e-mail address and I'll e-mail you a copy of the ISSF & ATA Rule books or go to the ATA & ISSF web sites or even easier just go to http://www.losttarget.com/olympicbunker.htm they will explain the International Bunker game to you.

    Also, Team USA Olympic Shooters are not allowed to use Release Triggers.

    #Release Trigger (USA): Any competitor using any type of release trigger can not compete in any finals rounds and can not make the National Team, National Development Team or any USA Shooting Team.

    Shoot well, often & safely
    Tom
     
  8. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Tom:

    I'm fairly familar with the Bunker setup, never shot it but would love to some day. I'll stick by my points though. I'll concede that throwing a target with a rigid distance rule means they are going to be thrown at inconsistent speeds depending on local variables, but I don't think you will find many that really look at it as twice the speed of ATA targets. 70 yards is not twice 50 yards.

    As far as the angles go, comparing the 45 degrees to the ATA 22 degrees is not really the correct comparision. Although it looks good, and you guys post it all the time, it is not really how the angles come into play in the games. It's the angle to the shooter that matters, not the angle from centerline of the house (or bunker). Since the bunker setup is a straight line with different traps at each station, the angles in relation to the centerline are roughly the same as the angles to the shooter. In other words, if the left trap at a station is throwing 45 degrees left, that pretty much equates to the angle the shooter sees. In ATA, the potential angle of the target to the shooter changes as he moves along the line. From Post 1 and 5, he could see angles of 44 degrees left or right of a straight-away; very slightly less than Bunkers max.

    They are different games and direct comparisons are not really all that valid when you try getting into details. I don't get all this putting down of the other game. Bunker is harder, anyone that thinks differently is kidding themselves. I just think it is mainly the greater speed and variable height that is the biggest factor. That is just my opinion, based on shooting wobble international, not a true Bunker, so take it FWIW.

    I'll edit this to admit I'm off on the max ATA angle. I was baseing it on the max machine spread assuming it involved a straight-away from 1 and five. I guess if you were really throwing max angles you would get some slightly right of straight away on post 1 and the contra from 5. This reduces the maximum angle to less than 44 degrees, but you should get my point; it's not 45 v. 22.
     
  9. PAR8HED

    PAR8HED Member

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    870, Oh heaven how I wish you were right. I won't argue with your math, not my strong suit anyway. Using your example, at Post 1 if you got a max left target you would probably end up shooting the target directly in front of you or slightly to the left of where you were standing. The difference being how fast you pick it up out of the house. Any max targets seen in Bunker will be 45 degrees from directly ahead of you. My best example would Scheme 1 where trap 9 is a 45 degree left 1.6m target. The little sucker is going to come screaming out and hopefully it won't appear as an orange laser. Two things I've learned, getting your eyes set in the proper place to pick up the target is critical. The other is that you can't shoulder the gun to the target, it's a whole body movement. What has hooked my on bunker is the challenge required for each target, you gotta earn everything you get. Others here are way more experienced than I am, but just saying what I've observed as I've learned the game.

    Hal
     
  10. clayscoach

    clayscoach Member

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    Guys, 1m = 1.0936yd. so 76m = 83.11yd. I have set many International Target Fields in my years of being involved at the International and Local level of International Shooting, and in Bunker, you sent the field at Zero degrees at 76m distance, with the elevation set on the height that each setting calls for first, and then you rotate the machines to the angle specified. Jon Ogilvie
     
  11. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Par8hed:

    I'm not trying to put Bunker down at all, and I'm just ballparking stuff here without doing precise math. My main issue is with the statements about 45 v 22, or 45 v. 17, which I see constantly.

    ATA max angles are not much less than 45 degrees from the shooter's perspective, and the normal setup (2 hole) would probably be a bit less than 40 degrees max. I'll let the math guys tie those down. Again, I think Bunker is harder because of the speed. The max angles are not really that much different. A big point though is that in Bunker you can get severe angles (sometimes in either direction) from most posts, so comparing Post 3, and to a lessor extent posts 2 and 4, there is a big difference in the angles seen.
     
  12. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Did ATA target angle rule change again? The old rule was 22 degrees off center line of station three, hence a 44 degree plus target. New rule is 34.x degree overall and 17.x off the centerline. There's just no comparison of ATA targets with bunker, even with fuzzy math.

    Hap
     
  13. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Hap, nothing fuzzy there, as long as you understand the ATA angles in the rulebook don't equate to the angle shot, they relate to the centerline of the field. IN Bunker they relate, not in ATA, except for Post 3.

    In bunker if you get a 35 degree left target from post five, it's pretty much a 35 degree angle to you. In ATA if I get a max left target from post five, which many of you are saying is 17 to 22 degrees, I'll disagree. It is just about a straight away to you. Contra with angles the other way. The 17 degree left/right of center spread in ATA, when viewed from post 5 results in a much more severe angle than 17 degrees because the left extreme is actually to the right of a straightaway. The entire 34 degree rotation of the trap is to the right from this post.
     
  14. PAR8HED

    PAR8HED Member

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    870, now you got me curious. On Post 1, a hard left would require how much movement to acquire the target and shoot? Assuming you broke the target directly in front of you and your hold point was on the corner of the house. Anybody got an answer? Not being flippant here, genuinely curious. There's got to be a math calculation for the angle, distance, etc.

    BTW, speed on bunker varies according to height of target. i.e. no consistent speed, height or angle on any target. Jon's got it right for setting the field. Because the heights are different, the speed will be different for the target to go 76m. Makes it fun!

    Hal

    Opps, someone asked on porting. Porting is still legit, at the moment I can't recall the exact distance (24cm?) from the end of the barrel.
     
  15. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    870, a true straight away from post 5 in ATA is the result of the old rule of a 22.x degree setting off center line of post three. Todays setting of 17.x degrees say all targets off 1 and 5, there's no true straight away targets from those two stations. As you say, the degree of the extreme angle from posts 1 and 5 are close to 34 degrees today. Yesteryear, those same extreme angles were 44 degrees plus the amendment that allowed for pin hole wear. On the old Win. hand set traps, hence a 44 degree (+ amendment) was the extreme angle at that time from 1 and 5, as the shooter faced that target.

    A mixture of greater target angle and higher target speed is the shooters nemesis, long distance is the shotgun patterns enemy.

    Hap
     
  16. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Par8:

    Let's assume for sake of discussion the ATA targets are set to throw straight aways from 1 and 5. This is my point: Holding for the straight-away from post 1 would be the same as holding over the middle trap of the set on any post in bunker. ATA is easier because I can't possibly get a right hand target, but the left hand target would be at a much greater angle than 17 or 22 degrees since the entire trap rotation is to the left from my hold point. That 17 to 22 degrees is from th eperspective of a shooter on post 3, not post 1.

    You can see where I'm going with this. From post 3, ATA angles max at 17 to 22 degrees to the shooter. But as you move to the ends, the angle increases. This does not happen in Bunker because the angle changes are accomplished by using different traps. Again, Bunker is harder but ATA max angles aren't as weak as many keep posting.
     
  17. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Hap:

    That is exactly my point, although technically the max angles could still be closer to 44 degrees, just not done much anymore.
     
  18. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    870, I saw the point you were making and degree difficulty in trap is on a sliding scale from the center out. Center being less faced angles to contend with.

    Bunker on the other hand gives the possibility of a most severe angle at any station but the shooter never knows when the others will show. Keeps the shooters on their toes.

    ATAs rule says "not less than" a 34 degree angle today and believe it or not, some aren't abiding by that rule either! I do look for a true straight away from 2-3 and 4 all the time I'm shooting registered targets. Seeing nothing but a true straight from posts 2 and 4 can only mean one thing?

    Hap
     
  19. Ifitfliesitdies

    Ifitfliesitdies Member

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    870 I understand what you're saying about the sliding scale. You guys are correct it is 17.x. Coach thanks for catching my 20th hour math. I never intended to say ATA was easy, If it were, we all would have won 105K last year. Just not the same game.

    I had 22 Deg on my mind.

    We have a squad of guys who shoot on Thursdays who occasionally come in and say "Can you change that field? Crank it up and drop it in the 5 Hole!". So I open up and make them quite a bit wider and add just a little more spring, getting to about 55-58 yards or so. I also throw in a couple green targets. Their game is: if the shooter breaks the green target, the squad pays the shooter $1.00 each. If the shooter misses, he pays each squad member $1.00.

    Today I loaded the machine completely with green targets and a few orange. The "5 Hole squad" went 9 (#10 was orange) targets paying or collecting before someone realized there were green targets in all the machines for St.Patrick's day. We all had a good laugh! I have to remember after they've left to set the machine back!

    Shoot well,safely and often!
    Tom
     
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