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AtA Sandbaggers ?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by M R Ducks, Jun 5, 2009.

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  1. M R Ducks

    M R Ducks Member

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    If they're not winning, they're bags are full of something other than sand.
     
  2. Carol Lister

    Carol Lister TS Member

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    Things should ease up at the 20 now. I've read that ATA has decided to reduce male shooters as far up as the 18 yard line for averages under 90 in must divisions.

    Carol Lister
     
  3. hoggy

    hoggy TS Member

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    Oh god!!! Here we go, the sandbag threads are going to start again.
     
  4. KENENT1

    KENENT1 Active Member

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    I prefer tp call it target management.



    tony
     
  5. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Look at how many cannot maintain a 90 average in singles.

    Don Verna
     
  6. batman1004

    batman1004 TS Member

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    what is the point of sandbagging you can't make any money shooting these days even the pros have to sell a product or do clinics to stay on tour if you are not rich you can't afford to shoot their are a few places you can make a little profit but not many. george
     
  7. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Bluedotman

    "I was just wondering how many ata shootrs sandbag seams like alot of 20 yard shooters out their that has been shooting for 20 years whats up"

    Thats right if you are one of those vile 20yd shooter you just have to be a sand bagger. There could never be any other reason for a long career on the 20yd line.

    Why can't people like you mind their own business. Just how does the 20yd shooter that has been there for any length of time effect you????

    Bob Lawless
     
  8. jhoward

    jhoward Member

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    Batman, one of the biggest reason to sandbag ATA scores doesn't affect ATA shoots. A great many local shoots base yardage for calcuttas on your ATA card and there is money to be made on some of those shoots.
     
  9. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Bluedotman

    "Ivanho why dont you mind your business if you dont know why they stay on the 20 yard line you are as Dumb as they are."

    I am minding my own business I am a member of the association you are accusing of allowing wrong doing by their handicap system. You asked if I was as dumb as they are? Well maybe I am but I know I am a lot smarter than you appear to be.

    There is no correlation between a persons yardage and being "dumb" if there were you wouldn't even be able to shoot handicap.

    Beside being insulting to people you don't even know just what yardage do you shoot and how long have you been shooting ATA targets.

    Bob Lawless
     
  10. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    BLUEDOT: Why don't you shoot and enjoy the sport awhile before trying to become an expert in what needs to be changed. Which is nothing. Your questions and suggestions show you newness and inexperience. Learn some of the history and why things are done the way they are before jumping in and getting jump upon.

    Don
     
  11. Dbl Auto

    Dbl Auto Active Member

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    I have only two ATA events under my belt after several years of just shooting local clubs. I shot 96 at Jaquas and 98 at the Buckeye Classic from the 16. Both of these events were in D class and I won them both. I thought I would move up after the 96 but did not. I shot 91 and 94 from the 20 yard line at the same events. The 94 was fourth place. Most new shooters like me want to get better and move back with the big boys. At the Buckeye Classic this week the same guy, Skipper Frontz, won the first three handicap events for about $4,000 according to www.rjstuart.com . He shot 97 in the rain from 20.5 yds, then 99 from 21.5 yds, then 97 again from 23 yds. He had an 86 today from 24.5 yds. I don't know how long he has been shooting from the starting point of 20.5 but my guess is that it has not been long. I don't know how the ATA could be tougher on a guy then this last example without discouraging new shooters. The 20 yard guys all think that the same 27 yd shooters always win but if a 27 yarder gets beat by a target by a short yeardage guy he must be a sandbagger. It seems to me, the new guy, that the real problem is for those mid yardage shooters who had a couple of wins from the 20 yard line but now are stuck winless from the 22-25 yard line. Don Cogan told my Nephew at the Buckeye Classic that nobody else can beat you if you don't drop any targets, which is really true. If you break them all you won't have to worry about who is sandbagging. I love shooting ATA events and think it's great the way it is.
    Doug Allison
     
  12. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    sarge

    "did it ever cross your mind some competitors just aren't capable of a better performance?"

    Is there a point and destination for your question your question or are you just asking the wind?

    Bob Lawless
     
  13. BT-100dc

    BT-100dc Active Member

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    My question, if the "known ability" rule actually has meaning, why do you have 98%+ shooters on singles on the 22 yard line? Should be a linear relationship between a high singles averages and long range handicap. Been in the ATA for over 30 years and still they haven't corrected the sandbagging. I was once told by an ATA Official that it's the shooters job to police it. After that the ATA lost its credibility with me. As Obama would say, "It's above my pay grade". Bt-100dc
     
  14. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    BT-100dc

    "My question, if the "known ability" rule actually has meaning, why do you have 98%+ shooters on singles on the 22 yard line?"

    I personally have never seen that. I am not saying it doesn't happen. What I have seen is a shooter on the 27 that can barely hold a B class average on the 16 so why doesn't that bother you??

    I also don't understand how a shooter average in singles has any affect on his yardage. You still need to be able to shoot a big enough score at handicap to get yardage.

    The last I new "known ability" has nothing to do with your yardage.

    Bob Lawless
     
  15. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Bob, yes it does. First hand knowledge in that department and it can get one more real estate added. Hap
     
  16. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Hap MecTweaks

    "Bob, yes it does. First hand knowledge in that department and it can get one more real estate added."

    Come on Hap just what are you referring to? I don't know for sure what "it does" is referring to exactly. I also don't know what is meant by "First hand knowledge" means.

    I will stick my neck out and say the only referrence to "known ability" is in relation to shooters from "other shooting organizations"

    It also says that.

    2. SPECIAL REVIEW

    a. “Special Review” is an evaluation by the Central Handicap
    Committee generated by a high-purified average on a 1000 Target
    Review or initiated by a shooter through his/her State Delegate
    or a member of the Central Handicap Committee. The results of
    a Special Review shall be agreed upon by the Central Handicap
    Committee and the shooter’s State Delegate. If a disagreement in
    yardage assignment exists between the State Delegate and the
    Central Handicap Committee, the matter may be directed to the
    Executive Committee. A Special Review may be used:

    (1) To determine possible yardage increases for shooters showing
    high-purified handicap averages on a 1000 target review.

    I don't see that as being the same as "Known Ability"

    Bob Lawless
     
  17. Pocatello

    Pocatello Active Member

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    I too have never seen a 98% singles shooter on the 20 yard line, so I did some checking. I have the 2008 Average book in Excel format that Neil supplied me. According to those records, there were 31653 shooters who registered at least some ATA targets last year. Of those, 93 had singles averages of at least 98% and handicap yardages of 20.5 yards or less, less than 0.3% of all ATA shooters. Of those, only 39 shot any handicap targets at all, so we're really only talking about 0.1% of all ATA shooters. Only 16 of those shot more than 100 handicap targets (0.05% of all ATA shooters), with the maximum number of handicap targets shot being 800 (800 singles shot with average 99.38%, 800 handicap with average 90.25% and 20 yards shown, 600 doubles with average 95.67%). This shooter, by the way, was foreign - I'm guessing Australian by the city name, but that's only a guess. Also by the way, none of these 39 shooters who shot handicap were from Kentucky. The ONLY possible anomaly I see in the data is the one shooter, from Missouri, who had a 98.67% average on 600 singles targets, a 99.00% average on 100 handicap targets, and yardage of 20.5. I could expect him, based on the rules, to be at least at 21 yards, but I suppose he could have been a subjunior who got punched 1.5 yards from the 19 for his 99. Looking at him in the ATA database in the 3S software does show he just turned 16 within the past week, so that is a plausible explanation.

    In conclusion, almost all of these 98%+ singles shooters at 20 yards shot very few singles targets (900 at most, and then only in one case), and almost no handicap targets (100 or less in 80%+ of those shooters).
     
  18. Pocatello

    Pocatello Active Member

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    Rereading the above posts, I see BT-100dc said 22 yards, not 20 - my apologies.

    Extending the sort to 22.5 yards or less brings us up to 158 shooters instead of only 93. One of those had a 98% singles average on 200 targets, and an 85.75% average on 1600 handicap targets from 22 yards. In other words he did not shoot very many singles targets, and perhaps had a good day or two. The second shooter, sorted by handicap targets shot, is the foreign shooter mentioned above. Most of the rest shot very few singles targets, very few handicap targets, or both, with almost half shooting no handicap targets at all. Your "problem" shooters amount to about one-quarter of one percent of all ATA shooters, with most of that explainable by the fact they barely shot handicap.
     
  19. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Bob, my "yes it does" above is an answer to your assumption that known ability has nothing to do with handicap! Your assumption is dead wrong Bob even though it isn't written in the rule book!

    "First hand knowledge" above is reference to a yard I received via a phone call from a (banned for life, member) to his buddy on the CHC! My singles averages didn't justify that move, neither did my handicap averages from the 23 yard line. What did the (trick) was my breaking more targets than two others from 52 yards behind the trap with new traploads for money!

    Ask someone you trust to prove me wrong or that it can't happen as I said? Don't wager your favorite trapgun on the answer though.

    Hap
     
  20. Too Bad

    Too Bad TS Member

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    bt100dc

    rules answer to 98%+ on the 22 yard line...9.

    Only those shooters who have registered 500 or more singles targets
    in the current or previous target year will be reviewed. If a shooter
    has insufficient singles targets registered, his counter will be zeroed
    and he will be printed on the summary until sufficient singles targets
    are registered. At such time the most current 1,000 handicap targets
    will be used in the review.

    The following table is used to determine “relative 16 yard average”:
    16 yard average shooter cannot be reduced below

    97.0% or higher 24.0 yards


    95.0% to 96.9% 22.0 yards


    93.0% to 94.9% 20.0 yards

    If you and others allegations are true, you need to talk to your delegate.

    Richard Luckett
     
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