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ATA Rules question- incorrect loss call

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Bernie K, Dec 6, 2012.

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  1. Bernie K

    Bernie K Member

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    It should be called at once by any member or members of the squad, but it must be done before your move to the next station.
     
  2. running bear

    running bear Member

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    Before you shot your next shot.
     
  3. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing in the rules that say when it must be changed. There is a rule that says when it can no longer be changed, but nothing about when to do it.

    You can't change a score once the first shot has been fired on the next post, or after the first shot on the next field in the event of a question on the last post of the prior field. So that would imply that it needs to be changed no later than during reading of the scores during the post change.

    It's really up to the shooter(s) to determine the appropriate time. If it's an obvious mistake usually someone will speak up right away, before the next person shoots. If it's a target that I shot at and I have a question I will usually wait until it's my turn again so I don't run the risk of distubing anyone else shooting after me.

    There is no rule regarding how many people have to see a chip to get the call changed. The rule says that the scorer has the final authority, so theoretically all five people could say they saw a chip but the scorer is under no obligation to change the score.

    Scott
     
  4. Tech Writer Jeff

    Tech Writer Jeff Active Member

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    Bernie K has it correct. You do it immediately whether it's your own target in question or somebody else's. If you waited until it's your turn again to speak up, nobody (including the puller) is going to remember what happened 4 shots ago.

    Also, there is NOTHING in the ATA rulebook about "it takes at least two members of the squad to overrule the puller's final ruling". No such rule exists in ATA shooting. (The PITA rulebook is a different story).
     
  5. Stl Flyn

    Stl Flyn Well-Known Member

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    I will put my hand out toward the rear, until it is my turn to shoot. That way the scorer knows there is a conflict, on that bird, and there is no disruption of the other shooters timing in line. Like stated though, some other shooters that may have seen a chip, may not say so immediately, because they do not want to disrupt the other shooters, even though this may be the normal thing to do it immediately. When done immediately, as stated, it sure can mess up the next shooter sometimes, just because of the surprise element. If you wait for your turn, to say you seen a chip, it eliminates that surprise disruption, and accomplishes the same thing. Just my opinion.
     
  6. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Scott has it right and makes an excellent point. No matter if one squad member or every squad member speaks up, the scorer ultimately has the final say. Also, if the scorer does mark it to reflect the change make sure the scorer also initials the change and writes dead by the change. I know at the Grand if the scorer doesn't mark this accordingly, the bird is lost. It happened to me this year. I was squad leader on that particular incident and had I known I would have made sure it was marked correctly. It was a tough lesson learned as it dropped me out of a shoot off spot.
     
  7. himark

    himark Well-Known Member

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    I have always felt as a shooter you should NEVER call your own chips. Seems a bit self serving doesnt it? I have knocked a good part off before and nobody said anything. It was tough to hold your tongue but felt I just couldnt call my own.
     
  8. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    What about a target that has not been hit. No pieces have come off, and the scorer does not call lost. What should happen at that point?
     
  9. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    You should turn around and say thank you. HMB
     
  10. guinner16

    guinner16 TS Member

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    My question has do with with proper etiquette especially when on a random squad. If you saw a squadmate chip a target, do you speak right up and interupt the person shooting or wait until it is your turn? I know many shooters would hate to be interupted, or is it widely acceptable in this situation?
     
  11. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    I had a couple of Ragheads calling dead targets for each other that had clearly been missed and the score keeper said and did nothing. I got in quite a tussle with said Ragheads, but to no avail except it just pissed me off.
     
  12. Tech Writer Jeff

    Tech Writer Jeff Active Member

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    Why wouldn't you speak up right away? If you feel there was an error in scoring a target (no matter if it was your target or somebody else's . . . and no matter whether the incorrect call was dead OR lost), you are effectively saying that it's not the next shooter's turn yet, since the shooter in question has not fully completed his turn and had his target scored appropriately.

    So, you can't really be "interrupting" the next shooter, because it's essentially not his turn yet.
     
  13. X2 fan

    X2 fan Active Member

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    Every squad that I have ever been on, when a scorer did not see a chip, one or more shooters have immediately told the scorer there was a chip. It's always been more than one shooter who saw the chip.

    Of course, the scorer does have final say but I have never seen one who did not take the word of 2-4 shooters who saw a chip.

    Tim
     
  14. fast gun

    fast gun Active Member

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    That happened the last shoot The puller called 2 targets lost no one said anything untill they finished the trap then the guy said Ididnt miss those targets 2 of his shooting buddies agreed the lady changed his score . He ended up winning the event I talked with her and told her they have to speak up before they change posts and that no matter what she had the final say.(Another form of cheating?) You tell me
     
  15. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    Scorer has the final call. Most will usually honor the spontaneous declarations of multiple squad members who say they saw a piece, but the puller is under no obligation to do so.


    Unfortunately, though, it's more common for the call to go the other way. Puller half-asleep and not calling anything lost.


    The correct time is immediately, when it's fresh in everyone's memory, but in any case without disturbing someone else's shot. You don't have much chance of a corroboration if you wait until after other targets have been shot. And after you've changed stations and fired your next shot on the next post, the results are final (except for arithmetic errors).
     
  16. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    mtimney: Are you now the bigotry Gestapo? I'll be good, please don't take my papers? Grow up....or maybe you prefer praying 5 times a day to the east?
     
  17. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Matt -

    There is no rule that the scorer must initial a target that they change from lost to dead. The rule says that they must write 'DEAD', but they do not have to initial. I actually prefer they don't initial because it usually makes it that much harder to see that they wrote DEAD. Also, if they change a score from dead to lost, there is no rule that requires them to write LOST. Any mark that is clearly not an X or / is considered to be lost.

    Scott
     
  18. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    mtimney: Now your the "Evil Discovery Gestapo".....Keep that evil under control.
     
  19. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    Careful Mark - You better check what the Muslim's belive, you just stated their beliefs. "To have contempt for someone based upon their race or ethnic background is the ultimate in illogic because it's not the race or ethnicity that's to blame for the behavior that you don't like." It is exactly the reason of their behavior and a reason not to like them.

    When someone wants to wipe you and your race and ethnicity off the face of the earth it is kind of hard to like them. You might want to love everyone but don't chastise those that don't, you also are labeling them, isn't that a form of bigotry??

    410 might be a butt head but doesn't he have that right, doesn't he have the right to be a bigot if he wants. Where is your tolerance?? Take you sermon to the middle east and see how long you stay alive because those bigots will get your well meaning butt.

    Merry Christmas to all.

    Don
     
  20. himark

    himark Well-Known Member

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    So can you call your own chips? not just CAN you but should you?
     
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