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ATA rule changes from the 2007 BOD meeting

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Neil Winston, Aug 22, 2007.

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  1. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Since some of these take effect in 10 days, I'd like to make them known, in bare-bones form, in this forum. If there is a difference, later, with what appears in the official minutes, the minutes rule and the following becomes "inoperative." Still, I'll try to get it right.

    Three By-law changes involving the operation of the ATA were passed.

    The target year was changed to 1 November to October 31, starting 1 November, 2008. The vote was unanimous.

    Target-flight will be defined by speed as well as distance. The speed - while not in the passed motion - will be 42 MPH (plus or minus one-half MPH) for singles and handicap targets, 39 for doubles with the same range. How to measure speed will be in an addendum.. The way to use a chronograph, with equivalent speeds, will be included. Unanimous

    The EC will publish an advisory Opinion that 10-per-post will be used when limited facilities require it. Use for other purposes is discouraged. Passed in a split vote.

    The BOD was asked to go home and over the next year find out if limiting a shooter to one category - primarily Junior/subjunior OR lady. (Not pick and choose once the score is shot) is favored by our members. If so, should it be for the shoot or for the target year?

    The H-code, as applied to a particular shooter, can be removed by a Delegate working through the Central Handicap Committee. Unanimous.

    Male shooters, on the 19 or 19 1/2 yard lines, will move to the 20 on their 15th birthday. Previously, it was their 16th. Notification is underway, but spread this around, will you?

    Directors were offered the opportunity to make a motion regarding the "Punch for Money." No motion was made.

    The Directors were told that the All-American Committee will make some (simplifying) changes in the points system. First will be to make the points follow the trophy, in contrast to the second paragraph of X,D,3.

    You get 30 days to file a complaint, a reduction in time from 60 days. Other times have been extended a bit to make it possible for the accused to assemble his/her defense and contact witnesses and get replies. The President may grant extensions where warranted as always, but that was not in the motion. Unanimous.

    That's what I think happened. What "Officially" happened, in great detail, will appear in the minutes, and, once again, they are official.

    Neil
     
  2. Doctor_Chicago

    Doctor_Chicago Member

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    Thank you Neil for posting that information. We appreciate having some information that we can use and discuss with our Clubs.
     
  3. Steve NJ

    Steve NJ Member

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    Neil, Can you explain the thought process behind changing the target year again?

    Thanks, Steve
     
  4. rennerize

    rennerize Active Member

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    I vote Neil for PRESIDENT,,, oops that already happened.
    Don
     
  5. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    tomk2

    A pro: fall shoots will be more supported by people chasing AA points, state-team placement, or just higher averages. This will counter the widely-held feeling that the once the Grand is over, so is the shooting season, and we'll try again next spring.

    A con: Target requirements will have to be re-examined as to their purpose and magnitude. But that should be done pretty often anyway, shouldn't it?

    Many Delegates remember October 1 to September 31 as the target year and recall it worked just fine.

    Neil
     
  6. trap55555

    trap55555 TS Member

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    Given the new target year starting in Nov 08. Some state may want to consider their target requirements for the 2009 state shoots. As some have "current target year" minimums to avoid penalty at the their state shoots. I know I used get a few hundred targets in during the fall months of the new target year, to avoid these penalties.

    run'em
    trap55555
     
  7. KelleyPLK

    KelleyPLK TS Member

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    Thnak You Neal , Thats very good update ,including overview of whats taken place . Look forward to hearing from you again your Pro ACtive !


    Pat Kelley
     
  8. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    Neil that rule on junior,subjunior, lady is a good idea. I meet two gentleman at the grand who were in there 80's that said they could not compete. I kind of felt bad for these older gentleman. Both of them said they were thinking of giving up the sport. (A super sr. vet class is suggested.) Futhermore, those new metals that were given out at the grand for 1st 2nd and third place in each class for 16 yards and each and every yardage handicap class was a great idea. The metals were beautiful. This could possibly be expanded to the state level. It will bring in more shooters. I am now a life member of the ATA thanks to Devi. What a class act.
     
  9. ronbo142

    ronbo142 TS Member

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    With the change in the target year starting in 1 Nov, moving the Grand to Sept would be a great idea as this would allow for milder weather conditions.

    Dove hunting would be a optional past time.

    Ronbo
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Jim, read the two messages above about changing the target requirements. Go to your state meeting if your state directors haven't already made adjustments. Shoot the team shoot because it is a good trapshoot with a long history and you've had fun there before. Trust the MTA to make things right.

    Neil
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    One other thing. Remember last year when the BOD decided that a category shooter could shoot for champion only and fall back to category, or to place or class if he/she missed champion if the declaration was made before the shootoff (or carryover?) That still applies. But much of rule X,D,3 has been changed.

    (aside: when I told the BOD what X,D,3 really said I was met with wide-spread amazement and even a couple of flat denials. I read the rule aloud; they read the rule. I didn't even get a chance to propose my suggested change before Delegate Martin from WVA proposed the very text I had before me and he hadn't seen.)

    It will now read, substantially, that when a category shooter makes the choice: category or place-or-class and starts the shoot-off (or carryover) he or she will remain in that "track." There will be no return to category if no place/class trophy results from the shoot-off (or carryover.)

    Neil
     
  12. starshot2b

    starshot2b TS Member

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    Thank you for the information Mr. Winston. I'm particularly interested in seeing how the category/class change will work. I think it's a great idea.

    Not too sure about the target year change, although the PITA's target year is now 1 Oct - 30 Sep, with the Grand Pacific held the last 2 weeks of July (or thereabouts). I have a hard time getting in my ATA target requirements for larger shoots due to the lack of ATA targets thrown up here (thank heavens for x-registering).

    With regard to Smsnyder's comment about the 'elderly' gentlemen - the PITA has an "Elder" class (over 75), to go along with the Veteran & Sr. Veteran classes. Would that be something that the ATA could consider?

    Looks like you have a busy year ahead of you and it just started!

    Appreciate your time to put this out to the masses.

    Sherree

    **EDITED Elder class
     
  13. shotgunfun

    shotgunfun TS Member

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    Neil,

    then will there be 2 MO Fall Handicap shoots in the AA points next year? This 2007 shoot coming up and the one in Oct of 2008? I guess this would also be the case for the Western Satallite Grand if so.....just a clarification.

    It is also my understanding that there will no longer be guaranteed point comp factors at the satallite grands.....in other words, if the attendance is a comp 2 they will be a 2, where last target year all satallites were guaranteed to be a comp 4. Is this right?

    So the year of 2007 will end on Nov. 1, 2008 if I understand all of this correctly. will that mean that the age categories will change to the date of Nov 1 as well.......?? So if a kid is 15 on Nov 1 they will move up to junior?? It will not effect Bryan, but will some of the kids who were born after Sept 1 and will turn 15 before Nov 1.

    thank you Neil.

    Lorna Hull
     
  14. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    Sherree, my 2007-2008 PITA Rulebook that I received at the Grand Pacific states that the target year is November 1 through October 31 ie. the SAME as the new ATA target year. I like the PITA Classification scheme where Average for Singles is based on the last 1000 targets shot at and you are required to carry last years card if you have less than 1000 targets in the current target year. While computing your Average for the last 1000 targets might be too problematic for ordinary ATA shoots, I don't really consider it a problem for the larger shoots where the Classification/Handicap committee is trying to put a shooter into a fair class. The insistence on a current target year cutoff date instead of last 1000 targets shot at, seems to introduce a mindset that targets shot after the Grand American are just a waste of time and money.
     
  15. Michael Jobe

    Michael Jobe TS Member

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    I'd like to see the target year start October, and all the summer shoots pushed back a couple weeks or even a month. It's bullshit registering birds in lousy weather in March and April for big shoots in early May, and then unless you're going to the Grand, your season is over by early July. September is usually good shooting weather, and I'd like to see things spread out more to take advantage of that weather.

    Michael
     
  16. starshot2b

    starshot2b TS Member

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    Mike - you're absolutely correct, unfortunately I was reading something else with that date range (totally non trap related) and put it here. My mistake - thanks for catching and clarifying that.

    Sherree
     
  17. OhioBob

    OhioBob TS Member

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    I'm not sure of the merit of limiting the category for sub-junior and junior lady shooters....it seems as though they might be the most affected ones here.

    Perhaps with the addition of Lady Sub-junior and Lady Junior category it would work out. I have 2 daughters (11 and 14 years old) shooting ATA now and know that there is a BIG difference between a 14 or 15 year old male and a female with regards to physical strength and endurance. Yet, my girls keep on trying to compete with some pretty outstanding scores shot by male sub-juniors and juniors. It is unlikely that they will be able to match the abilities of some of our seasoned lady champions as well.

    It seems the ATA has recognized that there is certainly a difference between the ability levels of the AVERAGE male and female by having a Lady category in place now. I think the differences are even more apparent at the younger ages of sub-juniors and juniors. We even concede there must be a difference in the ability between a 69 and a 71 year old.

    As a hint of the disparity between male and females at the younger ages, I would point out that it appears no female sub-junior or junior made the 2007 All American first or second team. ( It could also be that there are no females really campaigning for selection )

    With the growing numbers of female shooters in the SCTP program, it would seem prudent to give them something all their own to shoot for (just as the older adult females have)

    FWIW...my 2 girls have registered 6400 ATA targets between them, not just their SCTP targets, so they are indeed supporting the sport to some extent.

    I could support the choose one category rule change if it included new categories for lady sub-junior and lady junior.

    The target year change could be acceptable with a commensurate reduction in target requirements for the Grand American....I personally liked the old look back over several years target history. Each year is a little bit different for me with my occupation (farmer), and some years it is very difficult to get the targets in place in all disciplines.

    One rule change that could be considered for the ATA rulebook would be that at any ATA registered shoot, you can shoot your regular handicap yardage for targets only. My 11 year old daughter was faced with shooting 23 or 25 yards on 2 separate occasions this year and no provision for shooting her own yardage. I chose not to demoralize her and she sat out both times. This made it even more difficult for her to get the target requirements met.

    Why do we still allow compulsory purses as well?

    Just my thoughts...Bob
     
  18. dickboog

    dickboog TS Member

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    This is taken from the Great Lakes Grand Program. Note where it says "The current and previous year"
    CLASSIFICATION AND HANDICAPPING
    Shooters who do not have a total of 1000 16 yard targets registered with the
    ATA in the current and previous year combined will be advanced at least two
    classes or more at the discretion of the classification committee. Shooters
    without an established average shall be placed in class ‘B’ or higher at the
    discretion of the classification committee.
    Shooters who do not have a total of 1,000 doubles targets registered with the
    ATA in the current and previous year combined will be advanced at least two
    classes or more at the discretion of the classification committee. Shooters
    without an established average shall be placed in class ‘B’ or higher at the
    discretion of the classification committee.
    Shooters who do not have a total of 1,000 handicap targets registered with
    the ATA in the current and previous year combined will be assigned penalty
    yardage or shoot their handicap card yardage whichever is greater. Yardage
    assignment for junior and adult males is 23 yards. Yardage assignment for
    lady, sub junior, veteran, and senior veteran shooters shall be 20 yards.
    Classification will be in accordance with known ability. To arrive at known
    ability the following will be taken into account as far as such information is
    available:
    * Official averages - abnormally low scores will be disregarded.
    * Non-registered scores including shoot-off scores, non-registered events,
    practice scores, etc.
    * Any other information known on shooters’ ability to shoot and break targets.
    * Shooters are required to have their 16-yard and doubles averages computed
    for use by the Handicap Committee.


    This is taken from the Michigan Program Book

    4. PENALTIES

    Singles - No entrant shall shoot 16-yard singles events in less than Class A, or higher, (Ladies and Sub-Juniors in Class B or higher) unless having a minimum of 1,000 targets for the current and previous year combined.




    Doubles - No entrant shall shoot doubles events in less than Class B, or higher, unless having a minimum of 500 targets for the current and previous year combined.




    Handicap - No entrant shall shoot handicap events at their current A.T.A. yardage unless having a minimum of 1,000 targets for the current and previous year combined.

    Handicap entrants not meeting the requirements shall be assessed a 2 yard penalty (Ladies and Sub-Juniors, 1 yard) to their current A.T.A. yardage.
    Dickboog
     
  19. starshot2b

    starshot2b TS Member

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    Ohio Bob - with regards to your statement "with the growing numbers of female shooters in the SCTP program, it would seem prudent to give them something all their own to shoot for (just as the older adult females have)," the Lady category is for ALL females, not just us "older adult" females. When I compete as a "lady," I believe I am doing so against the sub junior/junior ladies as well.
     
  20. washandwear

    washandwear Member

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    Neil

    You are aware low power radar guns can only measure +/- 1mph. Are you suggesting that they no longer be used since the spec is +/- .5 mph?
     
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