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ATA Rule Book review?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by OhioBob, Apr 2, 2007.

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  1. OhioBob

    OhioBob TS Member

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    Recent posts over the past few months have got me to thinking (always trouble)

    It seems as though there are a few rules issues that arise frequently enough to merit an interpretation. One that immediately comes to my mind is the subject of correcting the scoring of a target.

    ATA rules specifically state that "The referee/scorer's decision on whether a target is dead or lost is final, subject to review only by the shoot committee or other governing body"

    Now, when a visible piece broken from a target and the scorer calls "Lost", It is "customary" for the other shooters on the squad to "assist" the scorer by affirming the presence of a "perceptible piece"....but I can find no mention of that procedure in the rules. Is the scorers decision final at that very moment, or are the shooter and the other squad members permitted to "assist" the scorer in his/her decision on the scoring of that target? How many other squad members are required to witness the broken target? Is the shooter himself counted towards that number?

    The rules don't actually permit changing the scoring unless the "shoot committee or other governing body" reviews it. To further add to the confusion, Rule Section VII-10 states that "It is an error if the referre/scorer fails to properly mark the results of the shot in the section of the score sheet where the results should be recorded"......who decides whether it is properly marked?

    Section VII-10 further states that.... "In such cases it is the duty of that contestant to have any error corrected before he/she has fired the first shot at the next post".....are we to interpret this as another opportunity to remedy a mis-scored target, or only referring to the actual location of the markings on the score sheet?....

    Continuing with Sec VII-1..."If the shooter fails to have the score corrected, the recorded scores(s) shall remain unchanged and no valid protest will be entertained".....Now the dilemna...

    Contestants have completed all 5 targets of a post, while changing posts, shooter # 3 hears the scorers call of " 5 - 3 - 4 - 4 - 4 "....shooter # 3 immediately states that he/she didn't miss any of those targets, the other shooters look somewhat puzzled, there were enough missed targets on that post that none of them can recall with any certainty whether he missed one or not. Is the scorers decision final at this moment or not? Can this score be changed by the scorer at this time? Or does it require the "shoot committee" to review the situation.

    To make matters somewhat more confusing....Rule Section VII-12 states "Errors in the recorded details of the official score can only be corrected in strict accordance with the aforementioned Rules,"....

    I would interpret the "details" to include whether or not a target was marked "lost" or "dead"

    So, if we are bound by "strict accordance" of the rules regarding scoring, how is it that we can change any decision of the scorer/referee?

    I have shot long enough to know how scoring is commonly done, and believe that scorers reasonably change their decision based on the other squad members input as well. I have also seen scorers change target scoring after completion of the post based on their desire to "please" the shooters.

    The rules are unclear for several situations that do arise from time to time and seemingly have no "official" remedy or established procedure.

    There are other anomalies in the scoring section as well, but that is for another day...perhaps some addtional language or clarification of our existing rules is in order.

    A thoughful review by someone like Neil would be appreciated.

    Bob
     
  2. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Why not just call them guidelines instead of rules since that is all they really are.
     
  3. OhioBob

    OhioBob TS Member

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    Lumper, that's a good one....that reminds me of the scene from "Pirates of the Carribean" when the girl in distress invokes "parlay" as from the pirates code....only to be informed it's not really a rule..."More of a guideline you might say."
     
  4. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Ohio Bob:

    I think the rule is pretty clear. These are my thoughts:

    1) "Is the scorers decision final at that very moment, or are the shooter and the other squad members permitted to "assist" the scorer in his/her decision on the scoring of that target?" The score is final when the scorer says so. We can ask about whether there was a chip or not, but we don't decide, the scorer does. The scorer very often changes his original ruling based on input from the squad, but is not required to. There are absolutely no rules about how many shooters it takes to change a score etc. simply because we can't change a score. It is solely up to the scorer.

    2)"Section VII-10 further states that.... "In such cases it is the duty of that contestant to have any error corrected before he/she has fired the first shot at the next post".....are we to interpret this as another opportunity to remedy a mis-scored target, or only referring to the actual location of the markings on the score sheet?.... " Not an opportunity to remedy an earlier dead/lost call. It's to fix errors in writing the scores in the boxes - which we all know happens from time to time.

    3) "Contestants have completed all 5 targets of a post, while changing posts, shooter # 3 hears the scorers call of " 5 - 3 - 4 - 4 - 4 "....shooter # 3 immediately states that he/she didn't miss any of those targets, the other shooters look somewhat puzzled, there were enough missed targets on that post that none of them can recall with any certainty whether he missed one or not. Is the scorers decision final at this moment or not? Can this score be changed by the scorer at this time? Or does it require the "shoot committee" to review the situation" Depends - if the squads scores got mixed up because the scorer fell behind etc, it can be fixed. If the particular shooter's targets were marked lost though, and he thinks they were dead, I think it is technically too late to argue a dead/lost call.

    4) "So, if we are bound by "strict accordance" of the rules regarding scoring, how is it that we can change any decision of the scorer/referee?" Actually, we can't. The rules say the scorer makes the final decision, period. Obviously, they usually will change the call based on objections raised by the squad, but according to the rules, they make the final decision, not the shooters.

    5) "The rules are unclear for several situations that do arise from time to time and seemingly have no "official" remedy or established procedure." This may be true, but these scoring issues are not really an example. These rules are quite clear - the scorer makes the decision. What makes it unclear is all the shooters that don't ever read the rulebook but think they know what it says, for example - those that say "it takes two shooters to overrule the scorer." BS - there is no such rule; shooters cannot overrule the scorer.
     
  5. OhioBob

    OhioBob TS Member

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    870....A very thoughtful response, much appreciated....I can't really disagree with you on any of your interpretations, only to offer that not everyone else will agree as well.

    If we agree with your interpretation of situation # 2.... " Not an opportunity to remedy an earlier dead/lost call. It's to fix errors in writing the scores in the boxes - which we all know happens from time to time."....then the rules should clearly state that as well.

    However your response to #3 again reinforces my opinion on the clarity of the rules....you said "If the particular shooter's targets were marked lost though, and he thinks they were dead, I think it is technically too late to argue a dead/lost call"....the fact that you have to "think" it means one thing leaves it somewhat open to a different interpretation by another person.

    If the scorer never called "lost" for shooter #3, and he only learns of the apparent mis-scored target when it is time to change posts, it seems as though there should be some clarification on what, if anything, can be done.

    I find it amusing as well the number of shooters who purport to know the rules says "this or that" .....Your statement of "What makes it unclear is all the shooters that don't ever read the rulebook but think they know what it says, for example - those that say "it takes two shooters to overrule the scorer." BS - there is no such rule; shooters cannot overrule the scorer.

    Well stated

    Bob
     
  6. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Bob:

    I said "think" because I did not have a rule book handy and was trying to be clear that I was giving you what I "thought" the rule was, FWIW; which now looks like about nothing!

    Update: Just checked online and I see what you mean. Looks like you can get changes made up until the change of posts. I don't see anything that would prevent it. I'll admit, that is not what I had in mind. I guess I was FOS above.

    Sorry
     
  7. Big Heap

    Big Heap TS Member

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    ATA rules, SECTION VII states:
    "The official score must be kept on the score sheet in plain view of the contestant. If contestant’s view of the score sheet is obstructed for any reason, he/she may refuse to shoot."

    Because shooter's wear hearing protection or are deaf they often don't hear a "lost" target called which just contributes to the confusion. The rule above is almost always violated but the problem could be addressed by a simple signal light which would flash when a target is scored lost and would be visable to all squad members. Development is underway on a lighted scoring sign system that addresses this problem and, at the same time, allows spectators to see the results of the squad as it shoots. Stay tuned.
     
  8. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    That is all you need is some sort of light that would flash or blink each time a target is scored lost.

    I can see it happen now that a shooter will get upset with the blinking light and gladly do a service to the rest of the shooters and shoot the blinky light and then argue the point of a lost/missed bird because the light didnt blink ... yep I can see it happening now.
     
  9. OhioBob

    OhioBob TS Member

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    870....I don't think you are "FOS" at all...I think you are like most every shooter out there, including myself, doing our best to interpret somewhat "fuzzy" rules as they apply to scoring targets.

    While I don't have a specific idea in mind, I'm sure some more intelligent person could rewrite them so they would be more clear.

    Bob T
     
  10. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Excuse me but rules are not fuzzy ... rules are solid and guidelines are fuzzy.
     
  11. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    The rule does not seem fuzzy, it's just that I was fuzzy on the rule.
     
  12. drunk_again

    drunk_again TS Member

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    thats why when i attend ata shoots, my lawyer is allways present.
     
  13. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Shooters can suggest to the scorer / referee that a mistake was made and if scorer / referee becomes convinced he made a mistake, he can change the score.

    It is true that the score sheet is rarely in plain view of the shooters. It is also true that some scorers do not call lost loud enough for us to hear. I often walk to the next post wondering if the scorer will call a 4 or a 5 for me. I much prefer this uncertainty to some sort of flashing light.

    Pat Ireland
     
  14. Big Heap

    Big Heap TS Member

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    I'm pretty sure I won't like it either. Who cares about the score? It would just attract snoopy people who can find the score sometime later on the scoreboard. Kind of like going to a ballgame and reading a newspaper tomorrow to find out the score. There's already almost more excitement watching a trapshoot than a spectator can endure.
     
  15. OhioBob

    OhioBob TS Member

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    I too would be less than enthusiastic about a blinking light
     
  16. smartass

    smartass TS Member

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    I love the "blinking light" idea and would make every effort to make it blink constantly.
     
  17. Frank C

    Frank C Well-Known Member

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    blinking lights may attract faulty release triggers "releases"......
     
  18. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    OhioBob you quoted the rule book "The referee/scorer's decision on whether a target is dead or lost is final, subject to review only by the shoot committee or other governing body" and then you asked a question "Now, when a visible piece broken from a target and the scorer calls "Lost", It is "customary" for the other shooters on the squad to "assist" the scorer by affirming the presence of a "perceptible piece"....but I can find no mention of that procedure in the rules. Is the scorers decision final at that very moment, or are the shooter and the other squad members permitted to "assist" the scorer in his/her decision on the scoring of that target?"

    As I read the rule their is nothing in the rule that says the shooters and referee/scorer can not discuss the matter all it says as you quoted "The referee/scorer's decision on whether a target is dead or lost is final" Please explain what needs to be cleared up on this statement. Just because there is discussion on the call does not mean the referee/scorer does not have final say on weather it is dead/lost.

    Anyone that believes that just because there is a discussion on a call the rule now becomes fuzzy is dead wrong. If you think that because there is a discussion the rule now becomes a guideline you are wrong. As long as the referee/scorer marks the final outcome of the discussion on the score sheet and the squad resumes shooting the rule is intact.

    Any time there are 12 eyes on the line and all are looking at the targets from slightly different angles there is always a chance that the scorer is wrong. If that person is reasonable he/she will listen and make a call from the information received. As far as I am concerned unless someone takes the scorer's marker and writes in the out come then it is scorer's choice.

    Bob Lawless

    PS to all the other questions that you asked refering to the other precieved problems you brought up all I can say is "The scorer's decision is final".
     
  19. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Big Heap you stated that "the problem could be addressed by a simple signal light which would flash when a target is scored lost and would be visable to all squad members." Who would trigger this light? Would that be the same scorer that may not have had the presence of mind to say lost? That would sure cure the problem. Earth Shaking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Bob Lawless
     
  20. motrap

    motrap Member

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    What is so amazing REGARDING MOST of this discussion [the parts about: recording the call inaccurately, scorer forgetting to call "LOST"(or not calling loudly enough), reading the marked scores incorrectly (calling 5, but marking 4), scorer confusion mistakes (scoring 4 shooters as if there were 5), and not changing a mis-marked score correctly, (i.e. according to the rules "DEAD" must be written over a changed mark)] WERE ALL NON-ISSUES;

    until about 15 years ago, when the ATA decided to not enforce the rule(s) about the size of the score-sheet (squares to mark the shooter's results at an individual target were approximately 1" square, whole score sheet for a squad was around 12"x36", easily seen from every/any post)

    and, the continuing practice of not enforcing the rule about the score sheet being "in plain view" (recently, even with the small score-sheets, I asked a few times for the scorer to hold the sheet up and reach over to score, you'd have thought I asked them to stand on their heads.)

    The occurrence of a scorer not seeing a chip would not be addressed, but 4 out of 5 ain't bad.

    Having been involved with helping run some major shoots for over 25 years, not a shoot goes by where a shooter has not come into the office paraphrasing ....... "I broke a 25 on my third trap, they've got me down for a 24 on the score board!" ......... In the old days, the reason for this discrepancy would have been addressed, in a timely matter (on the field), preventing the shooter from "discovering", "too late" that he did not hit the 3rd 25 for $317.50, etc. I personally have seen this anomaly ...... cost the legitimate winner the trophy in probably every Category, probably every Class and cost many, many shooters, many many dollars, including a guy over $4500.00 for one target mis-called/marked, that would've been seen with larger score sheets.

    To those who suggest that the large score sheets are "too expensive" ....... I say it's just the cost of doing business ........ we could save way more money by reducing shot from 1-1/8 oz. to 1 oz., shooting only 20 targets per round, hiring only illegal aliens as trappers, etc., etc., etc. ......

    To those who suggest that the large score sheets are "too much trouble" ....... I say it's just the cost of doing business ........ it's way less trouble than unloading a trailer load (or 4) of clay targets, hiring and keeping track of 8 (or 108) trap help for a day (or 6 days), having food, ammo, parking, grass cut, etc. available at a shoot, etc., etc., etc. ..........

    Go figure !!!!!!!! ........ for the good of trap, Rudy
     
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