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ATA Rule Book Question ATA TROPHIES

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by mike31z, Jul 3, 2008.

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  1. mike31z

    mike31z Member

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    I have a question on the new portion of the 2008 ATA rulebook. On page 36 & 37 of the ATA rulebook is the ATA Trophies portion. At the top of page 37 how does the second and third sentence apply to local shoot program that consist of three (3) events 100 aingles, 100 handicap and 50 Pair doubles?
    <br> I have extracted a copy of the ATA rule book and highlighted the second and third sentence.



    <br>
    <br>

    D. ATA TROPHIES
    1. Only one (1) ATA trophy shall be awarded to any one (1) person in any
    separate event. This means a contestant may not win a special category
    trophy and an ATA event champion (runner up etc) or ATA class trophy.
    Trophies not provided by ATA to States/Provinces or Zones are exempt
    from this rule. Please see paragraph E. and H. of this section.<br><br>


    2. A contestant whose score qualifies them for more than one (1) ATA
    trophy must notify shoot management which trophy he/she desires
    to accept or shoot off for. Failure of the contestant to notify shoot
    management within fifteen (15) minutes after the last events scores are
    posted gives shoot management the right and imposes on them the duty
    to make the determination for that shooter. Shoot management shall
    consider special category trophies superior to class trophies.
    <br><br>
    36
    <br>
    <br>
    3. A Category shooter, tied for Event Champion may shoot off
    for (or carry-over for) Champion and if unsuccessful in winning
    that single Event Trophy, may "fall back," if otherwise eligible,
    to either category or place/class.

    A shooter who has chosen (or
    been assigned) "category" is ineligible for any "class" or "place"
    trophy except Champion.

    A shooter who has chosen "class" or
    "place" is ineligible for any "category" trophy. In the absence of
    a declaration (prior to entering the shootoff or carry-over), shoot
    management will assign category as the choice. A declaration,
    once made, is final and cannot be changed.
    <br><br>
    When there are both Junior and Sub-Junior trophies, the Junior must
    take the Junior trophy, and the Sub-Junior must take the Sub-Junior
    trophy regardless of the high score between the two. Likewise, this
    rule also applies to Veterans and Senior Veterans.
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Mike, I think that the first sentence answers your question. Each event is considered separately; a shooter could win an ATA trophy in each of the three events you mention.

    The best version of the category rules was written by Bob Stuart and appears in the 2008 Grand program. His text will be in the 2009 rulebook.

    Neil
     
  3. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Mike:

    First, at a local shoot, management does not have to follow the rule above, since it only applies to ATA trophies. That said, I think most clubs do follow that rule.

    I assume your question is about the fall-back portion of the rule? What it means is that a category shooter that ties for event champion(which would also mean he is high in his class and category) can enter and lose the champion shootoff, and still take (or shoot-off for) either category or class; but once he declares which of those options he is going for, he cannot fall-back further to the other if he loses.

    If a category shooter is high in category, and tied for a place trophy or a class trophy, he has to decide which track he wants to pursue before shooting off. He cannot enter a place or class shootoff and fall-back to category (or vice-versa). The fall-back only applies to the event champion shoot-off.
     
  4. mike31z

    mike31z Member

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    Location:
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    I was look for more detail. If I read The ATA trophies section and I read the "Special Category" section. When we have at local shoot and a Shooter has declared himself as a "VET" special catagory. That shooter ties for champ (only 1 trophy for Champ no runner up) and at the shootoff the VET looses he can still fall back to "Vet" which he was the high shooter for VET. He can no way be eligible for a Class trophy.
    Thats why I ask about the 2 & 3 sentence.

    Are Class and category two seperate eneties and a shooter can not be in both?
     
  5. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Mike:

    Yes, he can fall back to category after losing the shootoff; but I think there is a misunderstanding there still.

    There is a difference between entering the event as a category shooter and the declaration of category v. class discussed above when talking about shootoffs. In your example immediately above, the category shooter that lost the champion shootoff would be eligible to fall back to either category OR class depending on which he declared for purposes of the shootoff. The fact that he entered the event and stated he was a category shooter does not mean that is his declaration of which track he is selecting at the time of a shootoff.

    In other words, a shooter that enters an event as a category shooter is still free to win class/place trophies. If there is a shootoff for either involved, he has to make a separate declaration at the time of the shoot-off which track he is shooting for, and cannot fall-back.

    The initial classification as a category shooter upon entering the event in no way limits his choices for purposes of winning a trophy.
     
  6. mike31z

    mike31z Member

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    I don't have a problem with the Chamipn and any related fall back. Its the declared special category shooters thinking they are eligible for lettered class trophies.
    Let me address this a little different. Lest say that a VET has a score of 95 and the Champ score was 99 and there are 97's and 96's so the Vet doesn't qualify for shoot at Champ. Now if I look at Page 37 of the ATA rule book

    A shooter who has chosen (or been assigned) "category" is ineligible for any "class" or "place" trophy except Champion.

    Top me the Vet with the Highest score take Vet and is not eligible for any class consideration.
     
  7. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Mike, you are wrong on that.

    Read my posts again. You are confusing entering an event as a category shooter with declaring category OR class when it comes to shootoffs. The rule you are referring to( X.D.3.) is referring to a shoot-off situation.

    In your last post, if the Vet in question is in say B Class, and the highest score in B is a 94 not counting his 95, he can choose Vet category OR Class B. It is only if he was tied for one or the other that he could not fall-back after losing a shoot-off.

    The rule does not say that any category shooter entering an event is automatically prohibited from winning class trophies, which seems to be what you are saying.

    Again, that wording on page 37 about making a declaration is referring to a shootoff.
     
  8. mike31z

    mike31z Member

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    Location:
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    I think there should better wording in new changes to next years ATA rule book. They should not have used the word declaration in X D 3 and in IV J when addressing Category shooters. It leads to confusion on my part.

    Thank you all for your comment. I retire form this issue.
     
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