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ATA, Computers, Scores

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by flashmax, Aug 25, 2013.

  1. flashmax

    flashmax Well-Known Member

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    One high count thread, and several related threads, speak to the 'Uploading of scores" to the shooters card at a subsequent event.

    Aussie Dan wrote, in part;

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    "They turned up at the Cardinal shoot from the Grand with their handicap cards. The scores from the Grand were not uploaded to their cards when they were classified so they started to tell them but the desk wouldn't listen.

    Kim Nealon argued with the classification desk about his yardage and was told -"you aint in F#@kin Illinois now"- he was so taken back about that he didn't bother arguing any further. "

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The problem is in understanding the ATA computerized scores and the on-line Average Card. Nothing goes to the on-line card for update until _HARD COPY_ ATA Score reports are sent to the ATA and hand entered into the database. That is why the rule states;

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    "F. RECORDING SCORES WINS AND TIES

    1. All 16 yard, Handicap and Doubles scores are required to be
    accurately and legibly entered on each member’s Average Card in
    the spaces provided at the completion of each registered and/or
    tournament event.


    2. It is the duty of each ATA member to record all wins and ties in 16 yard
    and Doubles events on his/her Average Card. The intent of this rule is
    to properly inform classification and handicap committees of prior wins
    and ties in 16 Yard and Doubles events.


    Failure of any member to strictly comply with these rules may lead
    to penalty classification, disqualification and/or suspension from
    membership in the ATA."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    on page 13 of the rulebook.

    I count on the ATA Average Card to make things legible but I know where I have shot targets and what my scores are because before I drive away from a shoot my scores are placed in the proper box on my card/printout. All year it has been normal to be a month behind for the on-line record to show. The new totals and averages from the ATA site show up, as a general rule, after the 1st of the new month and those scores shot on the last day of the month will not show until the second month following.


    In many of the programs I have read this year there is a notice that the shooters should also have their singles and doubles averages computed for Classification purposes. As the rule quoted above states it is on the shooter to ensure accuracy. If every classification helper has to add up and total every shooter's information, even at a smaller shoot, there wouldn't be any daylight left to shoot targets.

    Pardon the disjointed nature of this posting but I wanted to, maybe, help out people who are new to American Trap and the ATA as a whole. The ATA is made up of people. I am one of those people.

    Don T. Littleton CO
     
  2. bas

    bas Member

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    Good post - unfortunately, too many classifiers rely totally on the computer and there is virtually no way they can be uptodate....especially if a shooter has just completed a shoot the week prior. You have to take the time to look at the Average Card. If the shooter doesn't have it current....send them to the back of the line and tell them to "get it current".
     
  3. FlaLagarto

    FlaLagarto Well-Known Member

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    bas,

    It's obvious that you have not spent much time on the back side of a classification desk.

    Not meaning that as a slam.. Simple fact, if you had you would know it's not that simple!!
     
  4. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    "They turned up at the Cardinal shoot from the Grand with their handicap cards. The scores from the Grand were not uploaded to their cards when they were classified so they started to tell them but the desk wouldn't listen.

    Kim Nealon argued with the classification desk about his yardage and was told -"you aint in F#@kin Illinois now"- he was so taken back about that he didn't bother arguing any further. "

    If the Australian shooters had no problem getting classified properly at the Grand a few days prior, why the problem at the Cardinal?

    It's as Betty (bas) says, a lot of clubs rely on what the computer only says! That's wrong and violates our own written rule concerning the shooters responsibility for keeping it up to date?

    I saw the same thing happen at our WZ shoot here in Tucson. The classifier was going to put the shooter in a higher class than his "CARD" numbers said he should be placed in. A slight argument ensued and the card numbers were computed and the shooter was classed accordingly with both average card and computer scores.

    HAP
     
  5. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Jerry, (bas) has been around the block a time or two when it comes to trap shooting! Shes helped write a few rules for ATA too?? Knowing how difficult classifying is? She knows more than most shooters ever will!

    HAP
     
  6. bas

    bas Member

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    Hey guys...and FlaLagarto...I have been behind the classification desk...both with and without the aid of a PC. (Yes, I go waaaay back). I do know of which I speak. I didn't say the job was easy...it definitely is not. What I said was, too may classifier's look only at the computer. That I know to be true.

    Betty Sackett
     
  7. Klay_Buster

    Klay_Buster TS Member

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    I have been doing classification for 45 years.
    If shooters would just keep their paper cards current, there would be no
    problem. I agree with Betty. Computers have made people lazy on both sides
    of the classification table. Dave Mishler
     
  8. mikkeeh

    mikkeeh Active Member

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    Also..at the Cardinal, the computer database that the classification desk was using was not updated with the ATA scores from the Grand. Grand score were available on ATA's site....I checked them on my phone. But apparently the ATA database and ( I assume the RJStuart database) were not merged. And AGAIN...have paper scores per the rules would have solved the problem.
     
  9. bas

    bas Member

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    Hey Dave! How are you? I miss the locker room at Vandalia! Hope you are doing well!
     
  10. flashmax

    flashmax Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Betty for the kind words. Here is just another part of the reality of Trap Shooting that many don't know takes place.

    After you do a good job in Classification, where everyone read the program and has their paper card up to date and averaged to make your job go smoothly, and after everyone shoots the target program, then the below section comes into play.

    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    D. FOLLOW UP DUTIES
    Following the conclusion of a registered shoot and/or tournament Shoot Management is responsible or will delegate the responsibility for:


    1. Completing and sending to the ATA office the following items:

    a. The ATA report form with complete names, addresses, ATA card
    numbers, and accurate scores of all shooters for all events.

    b. The earned yardage reports.

    c. A trophy list and shoot - off results for all ATA registered events
    that qualify for All American points.

    d. Names and addresses of those paying ATA dues at the shoot.

    e. A check for ATA daily fees or league registration fees collected
    at the shoot or league.

    f. One (1) copy of the official shoot program or league Rules. This must be done within 8 calendar days following the last day of the registered shoot or league to avoid a $25.00 late shoot report fine for the first
    offense and a $100.00 late shoot report fine for second offense in a
    target year, which, if not paid, will be deducted from that state rebate. A third offense will dictate cancellation of registered shoot privileges
    until delinquent shoot reports and or money are properly received by
    ATA. Any check(s) presented to ATA and subsequently dishonored
    is equal to a third offense and must be paid, including bank charges,
    before further registered shoots are permitted.

    2. Sending State fees collected to the State Association.

    3. Sending a report of the results to the Trap & Field Magazine.

    4. Reporting shoot results to the local radio and TV stations and the local newspapers as practicable.

    E. KEEPING SHOOT RECORDS Shoot Management is required to keep the records from all registered
    shoots for at least one (1) year. This includes all shoot cashiering information (entry and options) and actual squad sheets that were used
    on the field.

    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    So unless every small club gets wide-pipe broadband alongside very expensive hardware and software there will NEVER be a 'computerized average card' that can be used on Sunday and then be accurate for the shoot that starts the following Thursday. I don't forsee that happening in the near future. There aren't enough daily fees generated and to charge enough for targets to cover the computerization of records at every shoot would force all but Heads of State to stop shooting.

    For many people who just shoot targets the reality of just how hard the people of the Clubs putting on the shoots has to work, and how long after the casual shooter has gone off to a nice Dinner or home they have to stay to complete all the requirements just doesn't cross their mind. It is not malice I don't think but it is ignorance. The vast number of good hard working people that put on shoots every weekend for us shooters boggles the mind if one thinks about it. Since I got out of the office I am just thankful that these people have stepped up to do the job.

    Don T. Littleton CO
     
  11. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    And the paper card is so easy........
     
  12. Robb

    Robb Member

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    Paper card. It ain't that hard.
     
  13. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    That's catchy...
     
  14. AllAmer4

    AllAmer4 Member

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    And if you don't like paper, you can use an app!

    Dean
     
  15. Robb

    Robb Member

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    Wasn't even trying to be catchy. I've kept a paper card since 1987 and can't understand the big deal.

    Like I said it ain't that hard.
     
  16. blade819

    blade819 Well-Known Member

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    flahmax... I believe few here have not read between your lines. But.... maybe I'm wrong. The ATA RULES state that it is THE SHOOTERS RESPONSIBILTIY to keep his paper card updated! Is that difficult? Let's see you know your score, event, date and whether you won or tied. You need a pocket calculator and a fine pencil or ink pen. Waiting for a computer upload so you can rely on Classification to do it for you is not in accordance with the rules therefore a shooter who does not present their update card can be penalized as stated later in the rules. How hard is this? Based on what I read about the Aussies at the CC, I'd say that the results can be blamed primarily on them. The feedback from the Classifier and his reported "attitude" is another subject. Have I made any sense?

    blade819
     
  17. 8 Straight

    8 Straight Active Member

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    Enter your scores on the "My trapscores data base" provision right here on TS.com. It does all the math, then copy them to the card. Way simple.
     
  18. flashmax

    flashmax Well-Known Member

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    Blade, perfect sense. That was the point of the first post.

    Don T
     
  19. bas

    bas Member

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    Or, print out your Average Card from the ATA site and add those scores that aren't there.
     
  20. blade819

    blade819 Well-Known Member

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    There are several ways you can maintain your card. However, it doesn't change the fact that it is the Shooter's responsibility! Let's see, in business it's called "ownership". If the Aussies did not maintain their card, even though someone at CC Classification "may have" said something contrary or different, the finger of blame should not be pointed at the Aussies. I still have not heard whetehr or not the Aussies updated their cards by hand before classifying at the CC.

    blade819
     
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