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ATA Class System

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by rmueller, Feb 26, 2012.

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  1. rmueller

    rmueller Member

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    I'll start by; OK, I know the rules are the rules and that's what I signed up for and congratulations to the winner...but

    How does it happen that a shooter that scores averages between 92 and 97 for over 11 years and in 2012 averages 88; end up in the D class?

    It makes it really difficult for me to buy my first sentence in this post.

    rm
     
  2. chipking

    chipking TS Member

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    Because that is what his current average deserves. Gee lets see why.

    1 started shooting at 55 and is now 66 with a heart attack or 2 under their belt

    2 developed cataracts and can't see the targets anymore

    3 debilitating illness that weakens the shooter


    Any of the above issues and quite a few more can cause the sudden drop. I know because it happened to me in 2008 (I went down by 5 birds on my averages in both singles and handicaps) I was fortunate and am recovering and my averages are back up but some are not so lucky. If this is not you who has this problem I would respectfully suggest that you should worry more about your own shooting and less about others.

    --- Chip King ---
     
  3. rmueller

    rmueller Member

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    Chip,

    I'd buy all that stuff about starting out I was great and then went down hill...blah blah blah; but what about the guy who started shooting at 52, worked their way from 2 birds out of 25, to 49 straight (still haven't hit that 50 straight), had detached retina's in both eyes, lost 40% of vision in the left eye and 10% in the right, is developing cataracts and is trying to live out a dream of competing on a level field...<<< that's my story

    What I'm saying is that if you truly have gone down hill due to whatever unfortunate situation, it's fantastic that the 'deserved' average system works.

    I'm a poster child for the opportunity to compete in an average system...but if you all of a sudden go from 97 to 88 and then magically shoot 100 straight, 99, 98, 195 at a tournament; that's not average...it deserves a look, not only at the system but your soul.

    rm
     
  4. Ross

    Ross Well-Known Member

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    Chip King hit the nail square on the head, I'm 71 & wish that my eyes, reflexes, endurance, etc. were what they were 25-20-15-even 10 years ago. Also as per Chip illness in my case it was my wifes cancer, when these type of things happen you really change your priorities, also now on SS so not as much $$$$ for practice either. Ross Puls
     
  5. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    rm if think there is an injustice in your scenario. Contact your delegate and give him the shooters name and ATA number with a request for a reason for the injustice.

    Bob Lawless
     
  6. Ljutic 4 Ice

    Ljutic 4 Ice TS Member

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    I was going to stay out of this, but look at the Spring Grand scores from Prem thru the Main. It wont take long to figure out who and from where. This is why I don't like the ATA not using the last 1000 targets for ave. But he did had 1000 targets in 2012. So no one use that BS about known ability. Walked off with all D Class singles till he was moved up in class in event 15 because the program states no class up till then. He should have been bumped after event 1. Thanks David
     
  7. gdbabin

    gdbabin TS Member

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    Since when did the ATA do away with looking at the most recent 1000 targets to properly classify David? What page of the rule book is that on?


    That is not to say someone wasn't, or was classified appropriately at the SG..


    Guy Babin
     
  8. rmueller

    rmueller Member

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    I think David is in the ball park; 1000 is only part of the equation, the singles classification system has a number of components that qualify classification. Like I started out saying, the rules are the rules...but I don't think the anyone should take advantage of the convenience of only a small set of the rules. All the rules need to apply or we don't need all the rules...

    So here's how I see it.

    In this particular case it seems the class was arrived at by average only, not by Section 5-b on page 23 starting with Section 1-a (pay particular attention to item (3)). If for some reason this individual did loose ability, then by all means put them in the proper class...ie. refer to item (3).

    a. To arrive at known ability the following should be taken into
    consideration as far as such information is or can be made
    available:
    (1) Official registered targets (abnormally low scores should be
    disregarded). Averages of all registered shooters are compiled
    and published annually.
    (2) Non-registered scores including Shoot-off scores, nonregistered
    events, practice scores, etc.
    (3) Any other information bearing on a shooter’s ability to shoot
    and break targets.

    5. For better classification of shooters it is suggested that the following
    method be used.
    a. If the shooter has less than 500 targets on current year’s Average
    Card, use the previous year average and known ability.
    b. If the shooter has between 500 and 1,000 targets (inclusive) on
    his/her current year’s Average Card, use the current average and
    known ability or the previous year’s average and known ability,
    whichever is higher.

    rm
     
  9. Nutso

    Nutso Member

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    I take it this shooter in question didn't shoot an 88 last weekend.
     
  10. once na while

    once na while TS Member

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    rmuller, I am a new shooter to the ata,class d with an average of 85.

    i found out yesterday that there are several sand bagers in this sport.

    Not say that this is this persons deal but anything is possible.
     
  11. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Once, what's YOUR high score?
     
  12. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    On another thread 870 wrote:

    "ATA has no idea what special circumstances apply at your local shoot. There are many reasons you might want to use penalty and ATA shouldn't have the power to decide what is best for us in that case, simply because they have no way of knowing. You should be able to decide how to classify a shoot according to what works best for you, without Big Brother telling you what is best for you. That is why ATA rules allow shoot management to make almost all the decisions about how a shoot is run, especially when it comes to classification."

    The Classification guidelines are just that Guidelines and are not carved in stone. In PITA the last 1000 targets shot in Singles is used for classification and this may span several target years.
     
  13. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    I carry a doubles average somewhere right in the mid-80's (85-86)and have for years. Won "C" class in the Montana State Doubles Championship in '04 with a 95, am I a sandbagger?

    John C. Saubak
     
  14. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Cowboy: If you won or finished second in each of the 4 preliminary events, I'd say yeah, you very well could be.

    At best, this shooter was underclassified, and because of management's decision not to move winners up a class in the prelims's you get this lousy result. This is a glaring example of how shooters complaining about any type of penalty at the larger shoots ought to be careful what they wish for. There is a good reason to move shooters up a class during these big shoots, and this is as good of an example as you will find. I don't blame any D shooter for getting very frustrated when they see this happening.

    Maybe the guy is just getting back in shape after some issues, but it certainly was not in the shoot's best interest to let him remain in D for so many events.
     
  15. Barkingspider21

    Barkingspider21 Member

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    I don't care a whole lot about the classes, I go to shoot. At the Dixie Grand this year I shot the 200 singles with 2 shooters were AAA and 2 who were AA they shot better than I did but I shot above my average at present I am recovering from a bad slump but the scores are climbing little by little. Never mind the classes, just go out and shoot. Woody Sullivan
     
  16. John Galt

    John Galt TS Member

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    When did the ATA start assigning classes?
     
  17. Tripod

    Tripod Well-Known Member

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    Iowa man!!
    I have been classed wrong at big shoots both ways. I won a class D championship at the Iowa state shoot with a 197 one time and I told the guy that I had quit using a gun that didn't work for me halfway through the season and pointed out my scores had averaged 96 since I went back to the old gun. Most of my singles averages are shot early in the season with often terrible winds as well.
    No one make a living off of winning 16 yards championships anyway.
     
  18. OldGoat

    OldGoat Well-Known Member

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    If you shoot "targets only" and avoid the money (aka "greed") aspect of an otherwise enjoyable pastime, why would you or anyone care? Shoot, break targets, and have fun. Personally, I get kind of a kick out of all the hysteria and cantankerous rants of those who take this so seriously. Lighten up, Francis! Best Regards, Ed
     
  19. Flinch king

    Flinch king Member

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    That is no different than my situation. Last year was my first year shooting with a ATA card. I have no targets listed anywhere - period. So the first thing they do is put me in B class. Along with the sandbagger's alumni group. Whats the chances of me winning in this class? How long do I keep giving them money until they find out that I should be in a lower class just starting out, not to mention having to shoot 1000 reg. targets to get reclassification. And they wonder why people are dropping out and the numbers are declining.
    Just some thoughts,
    Brian Seibert
     
  20. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    You don't have to shoot a 1000 targets to get reclassified unless it is stated in the rules of the shoot you are attending. That is usually just reserved for the Grand and larger shoots. There is absolutely NO ATA RULE that states you must have 1000 targets before being classified properly. Usually around here its around 300 targets before they see your potential and classify you accordingly sometimes even less. Read the ATA rule book and know it.

    .............................................................................................

    C. CLASSIFICATION<br>
    1. For 16-yard targets and Doubles, shooters should be placed in three
    (3) or more classes, according to their established average and/or
    known ability. A new shooter may be assigned to any class in 16-yards
    and Doubles events, at the discretion of classification personnel until
    the shooter establishes his/her known ability.
    a. To arrive at known ability the following should be taken into
    consideration as far as such information is or can be made
    available:<br>
    (1) Official registered targets (abnormally low scores should be
    disregarded). Averages of all registered shooters are compiled
    and published annually.<br>
    (2) Non-registered scores including Shoot-off scores, nonregistered
    events, practice scores, etc.<br>
    (3) Any other information bearing on a shooter’s ability to shoot
    and break targets.<br>
     
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