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ATA class question

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by BerettaJ, Jun 26, 2012.

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  1. BerettaJ

    BerettaJ Member

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    I have an ATA class question I know someone will be able to answer.

    I have only shot in 5 ATA events and I am like most others starting in B class. My singles average to date is 93.5. Just under the A class cut off. This past weekend I won B class and someone told me if you win a class you are automatically moved to the next higher class. This being A class.

    I can not find this in the rule book. Can only find the average portion of classification.

    Is this the case? John
     
  2. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Not true. Only if your average increases enough to move you up.
     
  3. BerettaJ

    BerettaJ Member

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    Thanks.

    That's the way I was seeing it.
     
  4. Calkidd

    Calkidd Well-Known Member

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    Not the case. If the program of the shoot states you move up a class with a win then you will be moved up.

    If during the next shoot the handicapper can put you in a class by "known ability." Even though my singles average was below the 94% mark I was place in A for my known ability because of prior scores from previous shoots.

    I know next time I will be a little more vocal about my classification. Even after totaling my state scores I am only 93.6%
     
  5. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Bryan,

    That's only if the shoot states that and only for that shoot. After that it will still be based on your average. Of course it's always up to the person doing the classification at the next shoot you attend. Like you said Known Ability can do you in.
     
  6. bowhunting11

    bowhunting11 TS Member

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    i have a question, when i first started shooting registered targets last year the first shoot i was placed in B class and that day in singles i shoot a 89 but the next shoot in singles i shot a a 88 but they placed me in B class even thou an 89 average going into the shoot i was C class? i don't understand why they did that
     
  7. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    You didn't have enough targets yet to establish known ability so you were left in a higher class.
     
  8. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    The dumbest set of rules I've ever seen. Inorder for rules to be fair, everyone should receive equal treatment. Rules should not be based on a persons opinion, but should be hard and fast, so you know where you stand. HMB
     
  9. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    Keep in mind that for singles and doubles at a particular shoot, management usually chooses to use 3, 4, 5 or 6 classes, (or everyone in the same class). With a 94 average, for example, you'd compete in A class at one shoot, B class in another according to the number of classes used.

    Your class at a particular shoot is determined by the classification personnel at that shoot, based on the shooter's "established average and/or
    known ability."

    In the real world, known ability trumps average.

    Check out page 20 of the ATA Rulebook.
     
  10. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Well as usual hmb says,

    "The dumbest set of rules I've ever seen. Inorder for rules to be fair, everyone should receive equal treatment."

    That might be the case if all shooters were of the same skill level. As it is the rule says

    "C. CLASSIFICATION

    1. For 16-yard targets and Doubles, shooters should be placed in three
    (3) or more classes, according to their established average and/or
    known ability. A new shooter may be assigned to any class in 16-yards
    and Doubles events, at the discretion of classification personnel until
    the shooter establishes his/her known ability."

    I stop there because this says the shooters "should be placed in 3 or more classes" It doesn't say "they must" be placed in 3 or more classes. The rule also says.

    "4. If Shoot Management desires to use different classification it may
    do so by printing the modified classification in the program of the
    shoot."

    Sure doesn't sound like a hard and fast rule to me as it isn't meant to be hard and fast. JMO

    Bob Lawless
     
  11. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Ever hear of the phrase, "equal protection under the law." HMB
     
  12. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Now not being a mind reader hmb, I don't know if you are addressing me or not. As for me I have heard of that phrase. Just as as I have heard the phrase freedom of speech.

    Yet we all know that is no longer the whole truth, well at least almost all of us. Right??????

    Bob Lawless
     
  13. trapwife

    trapwife Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Just this week at the CA State Shoot, a class question came up: two shooters were both in the same class, the high scorer was also a junior, he took the Jr. trophy so the class trophy went to the second high score. That meant the second high scorer was bumped up a class. He felt he should remain in his class because he only got the trophy by default, not by high score. Club management made the call.
    The ATA Executive Committee, who in my opinion has the #1 responsibility of GOVERNING, needs to make a hard and fast rule. That's their job, to make the rules and enforce them.
    It should be a universal rule at every club on a situation like this.
     
  14. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Good point Karla and your example shows how confusing this can be. It should be more cut and dry according to our ATA Rule Book.
     
  15. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    Karla,

    Class "move ups" aren't covered in the Rule Book.

    It really is only a matter of writing the "class move up" phrase correctly in the shoot program.

    The program should say that all high scores in a class will be moved up to the next higher class; not that winners will be moved up. In most cases, the winner will have the high score; but that's not always true, as you've indicated.
     
  16. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    It can get confusing. The tough part is for management to figure out what they really intend, and then write that clearly. See the various replies above, everyone has a different opinion of how it should be applied in theory.

    What is the point of prelim day class move-ups? Is it that the WINNER of the trophy should get bumped because he had his day in the sun at that shoot? You don't generally see this. Is it done as a sandbagging control where all high scores in the class get moved up regardless of trophy won? This is what you usually see. Finally, assuming we go with this last version, what effect do category shooters have on the "high score and ties in class" when determining which shooters' scores are considered "in the class."

    I'd probably have gone along with what happened in Karla's example, and I believe that is how it has usually been handled historically. The category shooter would not have been eligible for the class trophy, so his score would not be included in determing the high score in his class. The complaint about only winning because of default doesn't carry much weight since what counts is that shooter was high in his class when it came time to pass out the trophy, and it is this fact that drives everything. The shooter in question won the class trophy, so his score is high in the class. His score and ties get bumped.

    I think you should also bump the excluded category shooter with a score equal to or exceeding his Class high score.

    In other words, I'm saying determine the "high score and ties" based on the Class trophy score, since that is the score that actually "won" in that class. Then determine bumps based on ALL shooters in that class, regardless of whether they qualified for a category trophy or not.

    Just an opinion.
     
  17. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Club management should not be writing the rules. The rules should be the same for everyone, not change from shoot to shoot. HMB
     
  18. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    The rule on paper is the same for everyone. It says in the rulebook,

    "A new shooter may be assigned to any class in 16-yards
    and Doubles events, at the discretion of classification personnel until
    the shooter establishes his/her known ability."

    Isn't that what the original post is talking about someone with only 5 shoots on their card????

    Bob Lawless
     
  19. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    It is not the same for everyone. It is at the discretion of management what class you are put in. HMB
     
  20. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    hmb, why don't you re-write the rule to your satisfaction and post it on here so everyone can critique it.
     
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