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ATA Challenges to Shotshells Used

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by JOND, Mar 4, 2010.

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  1. JOND

    JOND TS Member

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    Are there any statistics available on how many times a shotshell has been challenged as it was thought to be "illegal" by the ATA? Any experiences by any readers of this thread? I'm guessing this is a Very rare situation. JOND
     
  2. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    I was on a squad at the grand once where a squadmate was disqualified for illegal shells. This was back in the prior mandatory shell days. The shells were illegal because they were not purchased from the ATA. He was shooting new Remington Gun Clubs and the ATA didn't sell those. He must have been saving the STS shells he paid for with his entry for a "big" shoot.

    Bob
     
  3. likes-to-shoot

    likes-to-shoot Well-Known Member

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    A friend of mine had brand new shells challenged by someone he beat in a shoot off. lol There should be a rule that if a person (or shoot management) challenged anyone's shells (new or reload) and the shell proved to be legal the challenger should have to pay for a new box of premium shells for the inconvenience caused.
     
  4. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    Bob, I've seen that done at the Grand many times over the years. If a shooter has a bad first trap, out come the shells he brought from home. Some guys actually shot their own shells in the Grand events and took the Grand shells home to sell to their buddies.

    Ed
     
  5. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    JOND, aside from the Grand, it's not been a problem. Some people shooting Sporting Clays loads with excessive speed printed on the have box have been correctly stopped. Others with 3 1/4 DE and legal speed one-ounce Federal shells have been stopped too, and that was an error.

    Basically, other than at the old Grands, it's rarer than rare and correct less often than that.

    Neil
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Excepting shells required to be purchased at the Grand, I have never seen a shell challenge. I don't know how one could successfully be made. You would have to challenge a shell already shot. It is not illegal to have illegal shells in your pocket. If one after the first post, is found to have 20 shells with 1 1/4 oz of shot, does that prove that the five he actually shot had 1 1/4 oz. Not to mention that scales at registered shoots are not very common.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    The ATA has rules, but no procedure in place to enforce them. HMB
     
  8. MGeslock

    MGeslock TS Member

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    I know... I know... This is not a SKEET site.... However this may be good information from the NSSA rule book.

    c. Any shooter may elect to have his/her shells weighed
    by management before entering an event. The shooter
    must submit all shells to be used in said event.
    After one shell is selected, weighed and approved
    by these standards, the balance of the shells shall
    be stamped, approved and sealed by some suitable
    method and not be opened until on the field where the
    event is to be shot in the presence of the field referee.
    Failure to have the field referee witness the breaking
    of the sealed boxes or containers on their respective
    fields shall necessitate the shooter using factory
    ammunition or risk having his/her score disqualified.
    Any shooter using approved and sealed ammunition
    shall be immune from further checking.


    d. Challenge Rule: At shoots where shells have not
    been checked, any contestant may, upon formal
    challenge presented to shoot management, have the
    chief referee, who shall use timely discretion, select
    a shell from another contestant and have said shell
    checked against the standards listed in rule I-B-2-a.
    To prevent abuse of a shooter with this rule, shoot
    management shall make known the challenger and
    the individual challenged. Entire groups or squads
    shall not be challenged for purposes of anonymity.
     
  9. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    Pat,

    I would not want you for my defense counsel but I sure would like to have you for my prosecutor. LOL

    JT
     
  10. stokinpls

    stokinpls Well-Known Member

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    Saw a squadmate get DQ'ed at the Grand for using factory shells from the previous year. He was shooting AAs and they still had the all-copper colored primers instead of that year's silver outer ring version. Still don't know how anybody noticed it or who noticed it, but his score got canned. Don't know his name, but his shooting vest was entitled "Rooster".
     
  11. Don S

    Don S Member

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    Saw a shooter using Challenger (orange) shells at the Grand in Vandalia. He got DQ'd. Not too intelligent.

    No, not Leo.
     
  12. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Don S- It was amazing to me to see shooters at Vandalia using shells not purchased at the Grand and tossing the empties on the ground. That seemed to happen a few times each year. They not only cheated, they were not very good at cheating.

    Pat Ireland
     
  13. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    I witnessed three shooters being disqualified at the Pennsylvania State Shoot perhaps 25 years ago (are the mid-80s really that long ago?). They were new shooters I didn't know real well but was aware that they drove all over to get their 1,000 singles and handicap target minimums met during the cold, windy spring weather. They didn't shoot very well but were having fun. Unfortunately, they didn't read their rule books any better than they shot.

    They found hunting loads of 3-1/4DE, 1-1/8, 7-1/2s on sale at WalMart or somewhere and bought 60 flats of them. During a preliminary handicap event at our state shoot, they had the misfortune of having a shooter on the squad following theirs spot the black, high-brass shells on the ground and the boxes in the trash can at each trap. He followed them to their vehicle, called the PSSA office and turned them in.

    They were rightfully disqualified but I always felt that three new shooters, with a high score of 80 between them, could have been left off with a stern lecture.

    They shot up those shells at local club practice shoots and never returned to registered shooting.

    Ed
     
  14. LDAdd

    LDAdd TS Member

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    This just brings up an issue that I've mentioned before. Not considering the "Grand Shell", the specs for reloads include maximum velocitys allowable for the different shot weights. Talk about something unenforcable, I have seen scales at shoots (never used though) but I can't imagine attempting to chronograph shells to settle a challenge. Conventional wisdom says that all chronograph readings as suspect when attemping to determine "real" velocitys (just ask Neil). Shot weights can be checked very easily if needed, but why have a specification for velocity when it really cannot be enforced. And really, who cares if Joe Trapshooter wants to shoot 1350 FPS 1 1/8 loads...he has to take the beating. As long as the shot weight is legal that should be enough. I wouldn't want to stick my neck out and disqualify someone on the basis of one single shell being, say, five to ten FPS over the limit.

    Just another potential landmine in the rulebook.

    Larry
     
  15. slide action

    slide action Well-Known Member

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    The whole thing brings to light the entire issue of "legal shells" In the clay target world, American trap is the ONLY clay target sport that requires a vlocity limit. Skeet, Int.Skeet,Sporting and Bunker trap all limit shot size and weight only. that would make more sense but then that would be a change and that comes very hard for most people.
     
  16. Bob Schultz

    Bob Schultz Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    The most interesting thing about this thread is that Leo, Harlan, Kay, Ricky, Ray, Kay and the rest of the guys who will no doubt beat all of us to death with whatever they shoot will not be pissing and moaning about spending an extra few dollars at the grand to do it...

    The task at hand is to break the targets, not whimper about the ammo. Get over it.

    Bob Schultz
     
  17. markdenis

    markdenis TS Member

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    Bob

    I wonder how much they really spend a year for shells?

    Mark
     
  18. Bob Schultz

    Bob Schultz Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Mark,

    The point is not sweating the small stuff. Champions learn to deal with minor issues and simply put them out of their head.

    We now shoot factory shells like we did for decades an Vandalia ... OK, next.

    With all the money we piss away at this game, I would think that to shoot in the World Championship one should not be overly concerned with this relatively insignificant detail.

    Some of the All-Americans do get a few shells from the manufacturers ... so what. If they played golf, baseball, basketball or any other sport as well as they shoot they would be getting a hell of a lot more than a few measly cases of shells!

    Bob Schultz
     
  19. markdenis

    markdenis TS Member

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    Bob

    My question wasn't meant to get a lecture from you. I know what I spend a year and it is a bunch! They shoot hundreds of times more than I do and yes they are much better for a number of reasons...free ammunition is one reason.

    Of course they are not going to complain about the price of shells at the Grand because it is probably one of the few times they ever have to pay for them. The extra cost of ammunition for many that play this game is a burden at the Grand and more of a burden throughout the year.

    Luckily I can afford to shoot whatever I want at the Grand or any other time, but I assure you it is an expense that many people struggle with constantly. If you along with other people can't see that then no damn wonder there are arguments about the cost related to this sport all the time.

    Oh, and about the thing where some get free stuff from manufactures...in all other sports they are considered "Professionals" and they participate in a class by themselves.

    Mark Rounds
     
  20. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Mark- At the Dixie Grand I got two free hats from White Flyer so I guess I am finally a Professional trapshooter.

    Pat Ireland
     
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