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ATA Average Cards

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by butchiez, Jun 16, 2011.

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  1. butchiez

    butchiez TS Member

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    I have been shooting for less than two years. I tried to get clsssified at the PA state shoot at Elysburg. I was told I would get penalized in handicap because my paper average card was not filled out. I have shot about 2000 registered targets this year in Florida and New Jersey. They never asked to see the paper card. I thought it was all in the computer. When I go into the ATA website my targets and yardage come up. I am new to shooting and registered shoots. Can someone help me understand the use of the paper card. Why couldn't the man at the classify window look up my targets on the ATA site using my ATA card. I was disappointed today after a two hour drive. Please Help.
     
  2. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    The ATA site is never up to date. Its your responsibility to keep your average card current. They want to be able to see all of your shooting scores and classes you have shot in. The only person to blame is yourself. Its part of the rules.


    From The current ATA Rules:

    C. RULES OF CONDUCT OF AN ATA SHOOTER

    4. The Average Card is intended to provide classification personnel at registered shoots with current data on a member’s shooting ability. Shooters not having their Average Cards up to date may be put in a higher class or otherwise penalized. Failure to accurately record scores,
    or the falsification of scores, can lead to disciplinary action including
    suspension from the ATA.
     
  3. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    The computer can not be depended upon to be accurate and up to date 100% of the time. The accurately filled out average card is the most up to date information available.

    The rulebook says:

    "SECTION II INFORMATION FOR SHOOTERS

    C. RULES OF CONDUCT OF AN ATA SHOOTER, Page 8

    2. It is the responsibility of all shooters to see that they are handicapped and classified properly in accordance with these Rules and/or the official program. Any errors made by the classification committee and/or the shooter must be corrected before shooting or the shooter may be subject to disqualification and may be subject to further disciplinary action.

    4. The Average Card is intended to provide classification personnel at registered shoots with current data on a member’s shooting ability. Shooters not having their Average Cards up to date may be put in a higher class or otherwise penalized. Failure to accurately record scores, or the falsification of scores, can lead to disciplinary action including suspension from the ATA"

    The ultimate responsibility for your classification is the shooters. If a classifier put you in the wrong class using the computer. The only proof you have that computer is wrong is your average card.

    The card should be accurately filled out after each shoot. Remember it is your only proof of your ability the people that the information into the computer can be wrong.

    Bob Lawless
     
  4. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    butchiez,

    The proper classification procedure is to provide both your plastic card and your paper card to the handicapper. A properly filled out paper card will be more current than the computer data provided by the ATA which is updated about once per month. See Section II, C, 3 and 4 of the Rule Book (link above.)

    The Shooter Information Center (the data that you look at online) has a disclaimer indicating that the information is not to be used for classification purposes. With that said, I'm sure that the handicapper had all the information necessary to properly classify you, but he was obviously a stickler for rules and decided to enforce this one on you.

    I usually settle for publicly humiliating people who haven't filled out their paper card properly. I'm not sure which method is the most effective.

    The easiest thing to do is follow all the rules, then no one can fault you.



    Scott Hoover

    ATA Delegate, Utah
     
  5. butchiez

    butchiez TS Member

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    Thank you for the info do I fill in the card only for registered targets.
     
  6. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, only include registered targets. The file at the link above explains how to fill out the Average Card.

    If you have any questions about it, just yell.
     
  7. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Yes only registered shoots.
     
  8. Hill topper

    Hill topper Member

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    Not all shoots will have the capability to look up your scores on a computer.
    Most small shoots will not be able to acess your information by computer.
    This is why you need to keep your card current.

    ed.
     
  9. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    YELOFIN--That is a good tool to use here however not all shoots will honor that printout. I have seen people penalized for not having their ATA Average Card filled out or with them. It clearly states in the rules as posted several times above. Nothing wrong with using that system here on TS.COM as i do myself but transfer it to your actual average card and save yourself a future headache. I agree its tough to write on that small card but it was they provide.
     
  10. TX-MX

    TX-MX TS Member

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    And we wonder why we have trouble attracting younger shooters. . .

    We need to think way back to our first shoot and remember what a maze it seemed like. That litte grid on the back of the paper card can be quite confusing to a new shooter, and the notion of having two cards can be equally perplexing. It all seems second nature to most of us, but to a new shooter who may not have a mentor or someone to guide them through the process, it can seem pretty foreign.

    And we've also got to come to grips with the fact that we now live in an era where people spend their work week in a "paperless" envirment and are totally dependent on info stored on computers and on-line. In most organizations, something like our paper card has long since been a quaint relic.
     
  11. warren

    warren Member

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    I agree with TX-MX if you are so parinoid that you think your stopping a sandbagger why would you trust him to put in the correct score on his hand written card. If the shooter has 2000 registered why would you want to publicly humiliate him. I would be very interested in knowing just how many sandbaggers are caught in this manner, we need all the shooters we can get and I've been shooting for over fifty years and have yet to encounter a cheater.

    warren
     
  12. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    The shooter who asked the question stated that he has shot about 2000 registered targets in two states. I don't think that exactly qualifies as a "new" shooter. He has some experience.

    His mistake, as with many, if not most, shooters is a failure to read the Rule Book. There are resources that exist to help him. I've posted links to both of those resources.

    Like I said, I probably wouldn't have been as harsh, or blunt, with him as the handicapper at Elysburg was, but the handicapper was completely correct. I would have used it as a teaching opportunity. But with the number of shooters that are process through Elysburg, I can understand that that might cause some inconvenience to other shooters.

    Read the Rule Book. It's not that difficult.
     
  13. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Well said V10. Just like any sport you must learn the rules to participate. With the rules in printed form as well as available for all to read on the ATA's website there is simply no excuse for not reading and following them. Why should there exceptions made for someone that has 2000+ targets? Thats hardly a new shooter considering thats roughly some 20 registered events.

    I will add there is really no need to publicly humiliate a shooter. I do however really find it hard to believe that in the process of registering 2000 targets, nobody asked about your average card or told you the rule of it needing filled out and kept up to date.
     
  14. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    "I would be very interested in knowing just how many sandbaggers are caught in this manner, we need all the shooters we can get and I've been shooting for over fifty years and have yet to encounter a cheater."

    Why does anyone believe that enforcing the existing rules has any thing to do with sandbagging??? There is more in the rule than just what you are reading into it.

    I was working the squadding desk at a state association sponsored ATA shoot. A shooter came to be classified. I looked at his card he had spent the majority of the season in one class. Now his average had dropped to about .7 of a point below that class. I put him back in that class. He was quite upset, he said my average isn't in that class why did you put me there?

    I told him that the people that were shooting in the lower class didn't deserve having a higher class shooter put in their class because is average had drooped less than a point. When basically his ability hasn't changed one bit. It has nothing to do sandbagging it has to do with fairness and the rules. As V10 said everyone needs to read the rulebook and if they don't then they are subject to the penalties in those rules.

    Bob Lawless
     
  15. 6t6stang

    6t6stang Member

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    Thanks, Scott, for the link showing how to properly fill out the ATA average card. As a new member, I found it a bit confusing, but that clears up a lot of my confusion. I do have a question for you guys though. For example, if you shoot two separate 100 target doubles events on the same day, would you average those two scores and enter the average in the doubles column on one line, or create separate lines for each event and enter the actual event score on your card?
    Mike.
     
  16. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Separate lines for each event.
     
  17. 6t6stang

    6t6stang Member

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    Will do, Thanks.
    Do a lot of you guys run out of room on your cards during the course of a year?
     
  18. warren

    warren Member

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    If they don't obey every rule run em off.

    warren
     
  19. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    TX-MX and Warren have it right. These days there are loads of activities vying for the dollar and many of them are a lot cheaper to play. We all know Elysberg classifies with the computer info. If the classifier just looked at the computer and asked the shooter if he had registered any targets since the last date on the puter he could have classified the shooter based on his response. How long and how difficult would that have been. But NO, the ATA has to bust chops on a guy that just drove 2 hours to their shoot. Wake up delegates and ATA officials and stop the high handed BS. We need to gain members not drive them away with such weak and PETTY BS. yes I always have my card up to date and give it to the classifier with my plastic card but 9 times out of 10 the classifier goes with computer unless I question him/her. Pat Ireland was one who always checked the card and asked questions but he was an exception and is dearly missed. JRM
     
  20. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    perga1---Its not like they made him go home without shooting. They simply followed the rules. He had not followed the rules and was subject to shooting penality. If it was his first couple hundred targets it would be one thing, but had registered 2000 targets. Now if he chose to go home instead of shooting thats his own decision. The people doing the classification at shoots do not know who is looking to cheat and who is not. I think it was handled properly and i myself have been penalized before although it was for lack of targets. Who gives a crap about what class you shoot or what yardage. Just shoot the damn targets and have fun. I highly doubt given only 2000 registered targets that he missed out on making the All American Team because of the situation. He learned a lesson and i bet he will not make it again. If this minor thing causes him to quit shooting, he likely wasn't gonna stick around long anyway. Just say'n...............
     
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