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ATA and Category Shooters

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by cobob, Dec 17, 2007.

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  1. cobob

    cobob TS Member

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    The minutes of the annual meeting of the ATA Board of Directors on August 16, 2007 at the Grand American said, “Much discussion took place on the issue of shooters declaring more than one special category (i.e. a Junior Lady). There is a faction who believe shooters should be required to make a declaration at the beginning of the year for one category only or at a minimum only be allowed to declare one category at a shoot. Delegates were encouraged to discuss this with shooters and be prepared to further explore this subject at the 2008 Grand American.” Then the minutes go on to discuss category shooters in shoot offs and the restrictions and allowances for falling back into the shooters category if not successful in the shoot off.
    I am disappointed that there is a “faction” who want to change ATA rules and make it more difficult for our young lady shooters to be successful in our sport. It is difficult enough for our young people just to shoot ATA competitions because of the cost of practice, ammunition, entry fees, etc. They are from younger families that usually don’t have the financial resources of our more experienced competitors. Also, many of these young families have multiple young shooters. It is difficult to imagine what it must be like to buy and maintain three of four shotguns, pay for three or four times the ammunition and three to four times the entry fees. Look around at your next shoot and ask yourself, is there enough young shooters to keep our sport strong in the future? And now a “faction” wants to decrease the draw for our young shooters even more? And if we want to be consistent shouldn’t we then also make young ladies and new lady shooters shoot at the same handicap yardage as the young men? As ATA shooters we should encourage our young ladies to compete and we should be happy for them when they win a class, yardage or category. Just this past Saturday we took seven of our SCTP shooters to an ATA shoot and the gun club didn't have any awards for Juniors but they did for Vets and Ladies! Is ATA a good ole boys club, or what?
    I communicated my feelings on this issue to my California Director and I was surprised when she let me know that most of the “Category Shooters” she talked to did not feel the same way I do. This makes me believe that more experienced shooters are concerned more about winning then they are about sharing our sport with young people.
    Bob Wood
    Tehachapi, CA
     
  2. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I really do not not see a reason for a Jr. Lady to be required to only shoot for either Jr. or Lady. And to throw out a different view of this question, a Sr Vet also meets all requirements of a Vet. Should a Sr Vet be allowed to declare as either a Vet or a Sr Vet ?

    Pat Ireland
     
  3. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Encourage senior and junior participation. If you want to get rid of something get rid of the Lewis class and the 25s and 50s which help support the sandbaggers.

    Senior Vets are Vets and Jr. girls are Ladies too. The ATA should get the AARP as a sponsor to provide awards for the Vets and Senior Vets. What do you think Pat? HMB
     
  4. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    Personally I'd like to see the elimination of any/all "categories". Everybody should be classed by their shooting ability and/or average only!!

    Curt - Delaware
     
  5. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    If the club you mentioned had not had any junior shooters at prior shoots why would they go to the added expense of trophies for what had been. You are all bent out of shape because you showed up and no trophy. Did you bother to talk to shoot management?? Did you bother to inquire before you went?? Young girls get a shot at one more trophy than young boys. So what's the problem?? Remember the "Old Boys" have paid and paved the way for young shooters for years. You might try showing some gratitude.

    Sounds to me like you are looking for a social shooters welfare program.

    Don
     
  6. gdbabin

    gdbabin TS Member

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    It seems to me that a study of the averages of the respective categories would be necessary to formulate an informed opinion. I also believe this should be but one factor considered--others, such as popular demand, and any historical data from the past before all the categories existed should be included in any intelligent discussion.

    It appears on the surface, at least to me, that for the most part there should be no inherent advantage to any one demographic if we factor out medical/physical hindrances.

    It will be interesting to see if this topic can be broached with informed and objective consideration.

    Guy Babin
     
  7. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    It is simply unfair for a shooter who is eligible in two categories to be able to decide which category trophy she wants AFTER all the scores are posted, and thus decide who gets (and who doesn't get) the other trophy.

    That's how the current rule works, and it needs to be changed.

    Tom Stewart
     
  8. TEXASZEPHYR

    TEXASZEPHYR Member

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    wouldnt it be easiest that if a special catagoty shooter registers as such, that the catagory should be what they shoot in. one group of shooters (men) then the women , jr's, sr's, sr vets, all get a crack at the mens trophys as well as their own catagory. every one gets two shots at recognition except the mens class. that seems kind of prejudicial toward the men's class as they only have one chance at recognition while all others have two. if you declare a catagory when you register, that is what you should shoot for with exception of HOA and HAA trophies. have seen too many young shooters especially, at the last min. decide to go with the mens catagory so that another jr shooter with a substantially lower score could get the jr class win. If a shooter doesnt register for class before shooting they dont get to change to class during the shoot, so why should a class shooter after shooting get the right to take win in some other class than what they registered for??

    bob
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    bob- I do not recall any shoot that had a mens category.

    Guy- I can give you a small bit of historical data you requested. Many years ago, the entry fee for Ladies was a few $ higher than for men. This was to cover the cost of the Ladies trophy when there were few lady shooters. That practice was stopped with an ATA rule that remains in our rule book.

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    We do not need any further changes in our rules. As I understand it. Other than the championship, a category shooter must declare prior to the shootoff if that person wants to shoot for class, yardage or category. We DO NOT need any further change in the rules. So what if a lady junior has the choice of
    opting for Junior or Lady trophies. For that matter that applies to all category shooters.

    In the last few years we have made a few rule changes. In my opinion most are detrimental to the sport. We got by for years without these changes. Our sport in declining each year. If we did not have the introduction of the NSSF,
    SCTP program we would have declined further. We need every shooter we can get and we should not attempt to limit them from winning trophies. Sanctions only lead to abuse, simple as that. I also believe a great deal of the sentiment for further change is being brought about by limited shooters, who probably have boxes of trophies they have collected over the years. And for your info, I am a Senior Vet. I have always opted for Championship then drop to either Vet or currently Sr. Vet. If I must declare the category prior to the shoot and would be eliminated from the Championship trophies, I just might consider
    quitting entirely. (P.S. I have never won a major championship, but I have tied and look forward to doing it again. Have won a lot of Vet. & Sr. Vet. trophies after loosing championship shootoffs. I have also won some class and/or yardage trophies, but I believe I am entitled to that). But alas I still want the opportunity to shoot for the championship. And I feel after 40 years in this sport that is not asking much. - Jim Elliott
     
  11. TEXASZEPHYR

    TEXASZEPHYR Member

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    Pat
    Really miss stated that. Not a mens class true guess it would be called open class since there is no other designation for people that are not in a special class. just feel that if you want to shoot in a class and want to register in that class, you should do so and if you want to shoot in the open class, then do that. But make up your mind what you want to shoot, register in that class and shoot in that class, In most sports you dont have the option of deciding what you wannt to do just prior to the end of the competition, or which trophy you want to get. Get in a class, shoot in that class, no switching back and forth. better for every one ie 2 shooters tied for B class singles, one in open and one in catagory. The catagory should be for the catagory only and the one in open should be B winner. It not right to give a person the option of taking an either or unless it applies to everyone. My point is that the person in open has only one chance where the person in catagory has two options. Seems that the catagory shooter has twice the chances to get a win.

    bob
     
  12. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Nothing limits your chances at a trophy more than being an able-bodied man between the ages of 19 and 65. That's not a complaint, it's a fact.

    HMB - your suggestion about getting rid of Lewis/25/50 doesn't make any sense in the context of category shooters. Those are options and have no bearing whatever on the awarding of trophies. If you or anyone else feels those options support sandbagging there is a very simple solution - don't play the option.

    I'm with MTA Tom on this one.

    Scott
     
  13. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Jim Elliot:

    I agree, you should always be permitted to shoot for the Championship.

    texaszephyr:

    I could not disagree with you more. Here is how I look at it:

    1)There are the championship and place trophies which should be, and are in fact, open to anyone good enough to win them. Do you disagree with that?

    2) there are Class trophies open to anyone in that class. If you beat everyone in your class you can win this trophy. Sounds good to me, what do you find wrong with it?

    3) There are category trophies to encourage better participation by certain categories of shooters. Sounds ok to me. I'm not in one of these categories so the way I look at it is that it does not affect me. ( I guess someone could argue the cost of the category trophies indirectly affects me, but let's leave that out for now since most complaints seem to just be shooters jealous about others getting chances at additional trophies.)

    Let's take Class trophies for example. The goal is to beat everyone in your class, right? If so, why do you think it is a problem if another shooter in your class beats you, when he/she is also a category shooter? If we took away the category trophies you would be guaranteed of losing. With the category trophies, at least you might get lucky and have some category shooter that beat you choose the category trophy, giving you the class win.

    I don't look at it that the category shooter is taking a Class trophy away from me, because to even have that option they had to beat me! So what if they get an extra chance at a trophy, it doesn't affect you or me.
     
  14. TEXASZEPHYR

    TEXASZEPHYR Member

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    I guess what has got me going is that i have seen some jr shooters, very good at that, that would take the class trophy in order to let another jr shooter with a much inferior score to trophy. ie, a 95 2nd and a 96 1st, true jr shootr shot an excelent score, but to do so to let another jr who only shot an 81 win the catagory, I'm not sure that the shooter with a 81 was deserving of a 1st place trophy. lets forget about jrs, what if this circumstance were to involve a sr vet instead of a jr, would you feel the same way? nothing wrong with the jr's getting trophies to pique their intrest but it seems that somehow it isnt right . thats all, unless there was a case where added monies came into play such as was a zone or state shoot. I understand that the best shooter should take home the trophy, and if that was the way if should be then why do we even have special categories.
     
  15. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Here's the rule for the 2008 target years. Its intent is unchanged from last year, but the Michigan Trapshooting Association pointed out that the then-ruleing text led to some unexpected results. We think this will address the problems they pointed out.

    "3. A Category shooter, tied for Event Champion may shoot off
    for (or carry-over for) Champion and if unsuccessful in winning
    that single Event Trophy, may “fall back,” if otherwise eligible,
    to either category or place/class. A shooter who has chosen (or
    been assigned) “category” is ineligible for any “class” or “place”
    trophy except Champion. A shooter who has chosen “class” or
    “place” is ineligible for any “category” trophy. In the absence of
    a declaration (prior to entering the shootoff or carry-over), shoot
    management will assign category as the choice."

    The rationale for the rule is as follows:

    Everyone should be able to shoot off for Champion.

    Thereafter, everyone should walk to the line with about the same degree of "risk." That is, everyone is after just one line of trophies, not, for some, two.

    Though is was contrary to last year's text, this is the rule we used at the Grand. We listed times, places, and personnel to contact if you wanted to carry over for class or place, put them on notices, and posted them all over. And there were certainly dozens of carryovers, maybe more. Guess how many didn't choose category, that is, how many came in to declare?

    Zero. People want category, at least in the carryover case.

    Neil

    Neil
     
  16. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Bob:

    Still doesn't bother me. The categories have no impact on you or me. The only way category shooters impact me is when they beat me fair and square, and when that happens what can I say? Nothing!
     
  17. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    I really hate having to respond to this post, but as part of the shoot management of the club mentioned in the original post, I got the short straw.

    We have a very successful SCTP program in our area which shoots at another, larger gun club. It has won both state and national championships and had two top 5 teams at Sparta this year. The kids we usually see at our shoots are from this program and they can stand and shoot next to darn near anyone. They have always paid regular fees and competed for the open or ladies trophies. As such, we have never had a junior rate and I don't recall offering a junior trophy and none was listed in the shoot program for last Saturday.

    However, we had 7 kids show up from Tehachapi, including Bob's daughter to shoot. They asked for a 50% reduction in our targets and trophies fee of $25.00 per hundred. After some discussion, considering they had driven a long ways, we told them they could shoot for targets only at $15.00. However, after the scores were shot they then thought they should be eligible for throphies as well. To make a long story short, they picked up both the D and B class singles wins and then asked if we would also be awarding junior trophies. We declined.

    So, our club's official position on the matter is that despite some difficult parental attitudes that had to be dealt with at the registration table, we went way past our program to try to accommodate these kids. They were fine young people who conducted themselves well both on and off the line. We would welcome them back.

    So, in the future, we will offer a discounted targets only rate for juniors and a regular target and trophies rate with a junior trophy.

    My personal view is that all categories should be eliminated because the good shooters in the categories are competitive in the open class and the bad shooters in the categories aren't even competitive in their category. That is why you see the same names keep popping up in the category results. A review of the recent Las Vegas results posted here makes my point.

    However, I keep observing "Little League Parent Syndrome" usually accompanied by some sense of entitlement "because we should encourage kids who are the future of the sport". Baloney. We should encourage the kids because it is a great activity for them to participate in. However, 99% of these kids will stop shooting when dad quits paying and they have to go off to school, get a job or join the military. We'll see some of them back here in 30 years. The future of this sport is the guy across the street, in the office or at the golf club who we need to put on the line and put a gun in his hands for maybe the first time and can afford the sport.
     
  18. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Did I understand Neil's post correctly. Did he say that the ATA ran the Grand contrary to the rules. That they made up rules to better fit the situation. HMB
     
  19. MTA Tom

    MTA Tom Active Member

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    hmb, I don't believe that was the case.

    The rule was written in a way that was thought would produce the desired results. However, I pointed out to Michigan ATA Delegate Dave Price, and to Neil at the 2007 GLG, that the rule as written, when read and applied literally by someone not familiar with the intent, would result in something else.

    I believe the rule as applied at the Grand was what the BoD intended.
     
  20. Roger IL

    Roger IL TS Member

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    "This makes me believe that more experienced shooters are concerned more about winning then they are about sharing our sport with young people. Bob Wood ".

    Bob, I Thought winning fair and square was what "sport" is all about. Loseing to anyone is not fun and I am sure a youngster will drop a few birds so an old guy can win...........Roger
     
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