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At What Point Do You Lose "Amateur" Status?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by colobiggun, Aug 14, 2007.

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  1. colobiggun

    colobiggun Active Member

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    At What Point Do You Lose

    After reading the debates on what the ATA can do to level the playing field so that the "every man" can compete, it makes me wonder at what point does the ATA say you are no longer an amateur and cannot compete against our members? There are hundreds of shooters who have been making a living from sponsors, endorsements,clinics, and prize money from ATA competitions, yet are still considered amateurs. They are about as amateur to trapshooting as Tiger is to golf, Manning is to football, A-Rod is to baseball, etc., yet thousands turn out to compete against them and try to concoct the perfect formula that will hinder the professional enough to make them able to compete against them. At what point is there a Professional Trapshooter's Association formed, and let them move on into that and quit competing against the every day trapshooter and his prizes? Maybe leave the Grand to being open to all competitors, where the average Joe is allowed to take his shot at beating the pro's at their game one time a year, otherwise, if he wants to compete against them and have a chance at their prize money, he must declare himself a pro and compete under their rules. Maybe this would stop everyone from trying to figure out ways to bring them down or hinder their abilities, and give meaning to the word "amateur".
     
  2. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    At What Point Do You Lose

    AT the point where, twice in the same week, you shoot better than some whiny-ass 22.5 yard loser who thinks he should get a hero medal for shooting a 95. Then you're a PRO.
     
  3. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    At What Point Do You Lose

    No one gets it.

    THERE IS NO MONEY THERE.

    You can't have a pro tour without big bucks. Where the hell will they get the money?

    I don't think GM or Pepsi Cola or Kellogg's breakfast cereals would put up 300 thousand to watch Kay and Harlan break targets.

    Gaudy vests with sponsor's names would not be seen by anyone, so why bother?

    Pissing in the wind ususally has poor results.

    Learn or get wet.

    HM
     
  4. BMC

    BMC Member

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    At What Point Do You Lose

    Change the name to American Trapshooting Association. I've always wondered why it was called "amateur" when the best trapshooters in the country are equal to a first timer and compete together. Not that there is anything wrong with that IMO.
     
  5. shadow

    shadow Active Member

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    At What Point Do You Lose

    I would suggest that one lose amature status when one accepts prize money in excess of $1000 for a single year, wagers on oneself in competition,or accepts sponsorship of any kind.
     
  6. shadow

    shadow Active Member

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    At What Point Do You Lose

    Old guy myself, MIA.
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    At What Point Do You Lose

    Rick- There was indeed an Industry Class. It disappeared about 15 years ago. It was a voluntary designation.

    shadow- If your suggestion would be accepted, I would be pleased. My shooting is sponsored by Pat Ireland Appraisals and I have long wanted to be considered a Professional trap shooter. Unfortunately, at this time, nobody thinks of me as a professional shooter.

    Pat Ireland
     
  8. deking00

    deking00 Member

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    At What Point Do You Lose

    Pat, is "Pat Ireland Appraisals" looking for another want to be Professional to sponsor? If so I would be interested. :)
     
  9. hoggy

    hoggy TS Member

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    At What Point Do You Lose

    How 'bout sponsering me too. About 15000 STS's ought to do for starters. ;O)
     
  10. FPBristol

    FPBristol TS Member

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    At What Point Do You Lose

    Compared to other sports trapshooting is the poor relative. There will never be a pro class until we can generate enough interest to garner even 10% of the revenue that golf does. Until then we are all in the same small pot and the best advice that I ever got was to not play any money games except the occasional Lewis. You can achieve the same credentials as the "pros" without having to pay any monetary dues beyond the cost of targets and equipment. That in itself is far different from most big money sports that require at the very least a dedication and willingness to spend practically every waking moment working on your game. Yesterday for example Tiger Woods was in our fair city putting his name on the very first golf course designed by him. The local rumor is that he was paid 25 Million to partner this development with its own golf course. Amazing as there are courses all over the place designed by guys like Palmer, Nichalus, Trevino, etc and they were paid the standard 3 to 4 Million in this area. From what I have seen there isn't 25 Million anywhere in trap. Personally I have hated golf since the beloved Pinehurst was destroyed and made into a golfing community and I love Trapshooting, however, the realism is that at this time there isn't enough money and interest in trapshooting in general to generate what it will take to have a "pro class".
     
  11. GoldEx

    GoldEx Active Member

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    At What Point Do You Lose

    colobiggun

    With our current system, you never lose amateur status. Not right but that's just the way it is. I have just as much opportunity to be a big dog as the big dogs. I choose not to work at it as hard as they do and I don't complain about it either. I don't play any money so I could care less if some unknown from that state between Ohio and Tenn. plays all the money and wins. He still had to break them all. People say that if we kept moving the big guys back, there would be a point where the load/gun just stops being effective in breaking targets. No so. Wad technology exists today that shoot 80% patterns at 75 yards but they are not loaded commercially. The shell companies would create a new load for the extra long yardage guys and they would never miss a beat. Just accept the fact that you are where you are for a reason and have fun.

    Jeff
     
  12. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    At What Point Do You Lose

    I have to believe that trapshooters are honest people but have often wondered how many big winners actually put it on the IRS 1040 form when they file the taxe's ... The IRS is not the people to screw with and they will hammer you if they catch you cheating, and sometimes even if they don't ... I have personal experience thanks to an Ex wife ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  13. markdenis

    markdenis TS Member

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    At What Point Do You Lose

    FPBristol:

    This is the only sport I know of that competes for money and trophies on a regular basis that DOES NOT have a pro class. That alone should indicate there is an outdated problem with this sport. It takes the right approach, brilliant minds, and a willing to change to make this happen. It is not about the money...it is about the solution and the right approach to get there. The money will follow.

    Mark Rounds
     
  14. jester-the-molester

    jester-the-molester TS Member

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    At What Point Do You Lose

    When a person takes up permanent residence in Kentucky....
     
  15. FPBristol

    FPBristol TS Member

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    At What Point Do You Lose

    Mark, I understand your agnst. I too wish that we could have a pro class. With the political climate we have toward guns in general I cannot think of a solution nor the way to get there. Our children and grand children are being influenced to be at best ambivilant about firearms and hunting. The SCTP is a breath of fresh air, but even with its success the percentage of youngsters participating comapred to even volleyball is frightfully low. If a benefactor suddenly appears on the horizon with the money to promote our sport professionally then maybe, just maybe we can make some progress toward the possibility of establishing a true pro class with a large base of amateur trapshooters to keep the sport viable. The money only follows when there is the likelihood of a substantial return on your investment. GMC and their vehicles are making a stab at sponsoring the ATA and trapshooting. Have you seen any marked difference in the attitude of persons buying SUV's? I haven't.
     
  16. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    At What Point Do You Lose

    The first time you shoot competition for "MONEY" you lose you amateur status.

    Shooting for prizes is one thing but when you step up and begin shooting for "MONEY" then you are longer and can never be an amateur again. I would though have some sort of limitation as to the "MONEY" part of it ... there would need to be a set limit as to an Pro vs. Amateur level of winnings and if you shoot in the pro level just once there is no going back.
     
  17. markdenis

    markdenis TS Member

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    At What Point Do You Lose

    FPBristol:

    I too do not have the solution, but that does not mean there are not avenues to correct it. Golf and many other pro sports started with the participants declaring pro status with little or no money involved. The participants, for the most part, considered their talent above the rest and wanted to compete against the best, to beat the best and to claim to be the best. Money was not the motivator ...money followed.


    Back then you were considered a "hustler and less of a gentleman" if you traveled around and competed in like events constantly winning....that is why the pro circuit in most if not all individual sports evolved. It was the participants themselves that knew they were better than most and wanted to compete only against the best. It was the participants themselves that went out and recruited their own sponsors to fund their talent. Personal Integrity among the best was the solution then, and should be now in this sport which ultimately may spawn a pro division.


    Mark Rounds
     
  18. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    At What Point Do You Lose

    flincher100- I do what you suggested and it works for me. I am already looking forward to a marathon shoot in 4 weeks. No classification, no trophies, just a lot of ATA targets. I hope I can hold up to 500 singles and 500 doubles in one day.

    Pat Ireland
     
  19. 100straight

    100straight Member

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    At What Point Do You Lose

    If Doctors and Lawyers are professionals, then Trapshooters should be also. Why you ask? What is it that all three share in common? It seems to me that Doctors, Lawyers, and Trapshooters spend most of their time "practicing."

    Shoot well and often,

    Mark.
     
  20. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    At What Point Do You Lose

    I know all of you gentlemen are sure that a Pro division is needed and I am sure you are all convinced that it is for the betterment of the sport. With that being said I would suggest that someone start looking at the lay out of the proposed changes.

    lumper said "The first time you shoot competition for "MONEY" you lose you amateur status." this is a little harsh as anyone that plays in the NBA, NHL, and the like are eligible to compete in the Olympics(the epitome of amateur sports)

    Also by lumper "I would though have some sort of limitation as to the "MONEY" part of it ... there would need to be a set limit as to an Pro vs. Amateur level of winnings and if you shoot in the pro level just once there is no going back." With this type of an attitude I don't think it will fly. What would be the advantage to becoming a pro? After all if one shot as a pro just once they are stuck with the status even if the money never develops a sure fire method of recruiting members and keeping shooters in the game!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I really feel that this one defines the correct way to make a distinction between Pro and Amateur "Change the name to American Trapshooting Association. I've always wondered why it was called "amateur" when the best trapshooters in the country are equal to a first timer and compete together." As far as I am concerned you can call it the Pickle Puss Trapshooting Association it will not make anyone a Pro or an Amateur any more than if they win a $1,000 dollars.

    Mark Rounds made a good point "It is not about the money...it is about the solution and the right approach to get there." I do however think it will take a lot of hard work and planning to put together a program that will appeal to all of the shooters that are involved.

    In almost all sports the Pro's are not told that they are Pro's they join the Pro ranks. There is a set of standards to meet before you become a Pro. You can't be forced to be a Pro you have to want to be a Pro. Example the Pro Bowlers Tour you must compete in a certain number of tournaments. to remain on tour. Someone needs to put together a schedule of the biggest and best Shoots to compete in. In short this means work a lot of work to get done and from what I see that is one think that most small clubs can tell you is the hardest thin to come up with these days. Whats needed is someone to take the Bull by the horns and get something started.

    I am not in disagreement with the idea of a Pro division not at all but I will tell you all right now it won't happen all by itself and the Big Dogs won't do it either they have a good thing going why lift a finger to change that.

    Bob Lawless
     
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