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Arizona may abolish permit requirement

Discussion in 'Politics, Elections & Legislation' started by wireguy, Feb 3, 2010.

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  1. wireguy

    wireguy TS Member

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    http://www.examiner.com/x-536-Civil-Liberties-Examiner~y2010m2d2-Arizona-may-abolish-permit-requirement-for-concealed-carry?cid=exrss-Civil-Liberties-Examiner

    On February 1, Arizona's State Senate Judiciary Committee voted in favor of a bill that would eliminate criminal penalties for people who carry firearms concealed without a permit. The measure has provoked opposition from an association representing chiefs of police in the Grand Canyon State -- which some cynics might well take as an implicit endorsement of the proposal.

    Arizona already allows open carry -- carrying a firearm in plain view -- without a permit, and is a "must-issue" state in which carry permits are readily available to people with a clean record who satisfy basic requirements. But it's not uncommon for un-permitted Arizonans to tuck guns in their pockets when stepping out for a hike, to run dogs or for other purposes, and so risk criminal penalties for a victimless act if caught. That has prompted legislators to consider following in the footsteps of Vermont and Alaska, states which don't require carry permits and have seen little in the way of a downside from removing one pitfall among many from the lawbooks.

    The proposed bill, SB 1102, strikes language from the law that penalizes carrying any concealed weapon, except a pocket knife, without a permit, and that also bans having a weapon "concealed within immediate control of any person in or on a means of transportation." The measure passed the Senate Judicary Committee by a 4-3 vote.

    If it becomes law, the bill would still leave permits available for those who want them -- especially people who want to carry their guns in other states that offer reciprocity to Arizona permit-holders.

    In response, John Thomas, the lobbyist for the Arizona Association of Chiefs of Police, said, "SB 1102, if enacted into law, will take Arizona back to the Wild West carry, with no consideration of officer safety.'' ( Well BOO HOO )

    Historians might note that Arizona should be so lucky -- several studies have found the "Wild West" to have lower crime rates than modern America. In Gunfighters, Highwaymen & Vigilantes, author Roger D. McGrath, a professor of history, referring to the "rough" mining towns he researched, wrote, "Bodie's rates of robery, burglary and theft were dramatically lower than those of most U.S. cities in 1980." He added, "Aurora and Bodie women, other than prostitutes, suffered little from crime or violence." Not to minimize the crimes suffered by women in the sex trade, but women in that socially and legally stigmatized business continue to suffer more severely from crime than other women.

    The towns McGrath studied did have high homicide rates but "those killed, with only a few exceptions, had been willing combatants, and many of them were roughs or badmen." Basically, the violence was largely confined to a subculture of voluntary participants -- which is almost the only part of the Old West we see in the movies.

    Tellingly, McGrath found, "[t]he citizens themselves, armed with various types of firearms and willing to kill to protect their persons or property, were evidently the most important deterrent to larcenous crime."

    It's not to much of a stretch to infer that Arizona's modern chiefs of police oppose SB 1102 and its looser firearms restrictions because they just don't want to be rendered unnecessary.
     
  2. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Anyone with authority hates to surrender it.

    Many of the elitist power structure do not want people to be self sufficent.

    That said, I prefer a response time of .065 seconds to a half hour.

    HM
     
  3. GunDr

    GunDr Well-Known Member

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    Aren't police chiefs usually appointed to their position? Just another politician that refuses to listen to "We The People".
     
  4. shot410ga

    shot410ga Well-Known Member

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    I think permits should be used. It doesen't hurt to take a class and pass a test to get a CC permit. If you want one or need one that's OK. Just learn how and when to use it, first. Not every YOYO should be allowed to pack a gun.
     
  5. Shooting Jack

    Shooting Jack Active Member

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    I do have a CCW permit and it seems as though everyone in the state of Georgia are getting them. It is very easy to get one in this state but like 410 above it scares me concerning some of the folks carrying. I am a dealer and average 15 guns a week, most of which are pistols. At least 90 percent of the folks purchasing have a CCW. We have open carry which doesn't require a CCW. I feel that is should be our right to carry a gun regardless. Legislation is in process to allow us to carry everywhere and looks as if it will pass. Right now we are not allowed to carry in court houses, city and county facilities, churches and at political rallies. Hope Arizona gets the ball rolling. Jackie B.
     
  6. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    Shot410 brings up an important consideration. Carrying a gun safely requires a considerable commitment to learning and training. Even the CCW courses we make permit holders take here in NV seem minimal in that regard but still better than nothing. Also I think people that are going to carry should go through the background check. There really are people that shouldn't have guns.
     
  7. oletymer

    oletymer Member

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    The one drawback I see is that it will be legal for all the bangers and other low life to legally carry also.
     
  8. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    The bangers and low lifes already carry, so thats not an issue being as they could care less about legal and Illegal ... I think each case would have to carry its own merit or lack of and those involved would or should have to be comfortable with their abilitys ... Not everyone is cut out to carry a gun or be faced with the possibility of having to take another persons life if and or when the time comes ... I have carried for over 35 years and have no problem with anyone else who does with the exception of the Criminals and Felons ... The laws of the State of Arizona have been relaxed for a long time, this just makes things better for a lot of people who do not have a CCW ... Those that do not carry now probably won't when it passes ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  9. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    After having a Carry permit in Indiana for alot of years The state of Indiana now has as Life time permit . I just got one today .

    40 + 60 bucks and your good .
     
  10. wireguy

    wireguy TS Member

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    Vermont has NEVER required any permit to carry concealed. My God, one can only imagine the number of tragic accidental deaths due to un-qualified people carrying concealed without the permission of their government. I'm sure if one looks one will find that Vermont is a virtual slaughter house of un-qualified people shooting each other into bloody pieces. Right?........... RIGHT?
     
  11. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    Wireguy,

    You got to be kidding me and nothing in the papers or on the news ..? If anything this will just give Obama another pain in his side, probably won't ever come to Arizona again ... Hey, this is a great idea come to think about it ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  12. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    The head of Homeieland InSecurity, Janet Napolitano voted these sames bills down 7 times when she was Governor of the State of Arizona, and people wonder why so many of us are glad she is gone ... The Now Governor, Jan Brewer feels that the rights afforded to the American people should be as they were mean't to be in the first place ... Welcome back to the Wild West, land of Cowboys and Indians as well as casinos of course which are owned by the Indians and are kind of a pay back for the lands that were taken from them generations ago ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  13. BrowningPotato

    BrowningPotato TS Member

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    I have mixed feelings on this issue. On the one hand I do agree with others who can see potential issues with unqualified/irresponsible people carrying. On the other hand, the Constitution does not say "the right of responsible, well trained, people to bear arms" it applies to everyone.

    That said, I have gone through the CCW course and have all the paperwork and decided not to take it to my local SO to actually get my license. Maybe I am paranoid but I do not like being on government lists. Even though I know there are millions of people who have their CCW I do not like the idea of being in a govt databse. Further I do not think I should have to ask the governments permision to exercise my second ammendment rights.

    I carry multiple guns every single day at work and am trained more highly than 90% of law enforcement officers, yet I need someone else to sign off on my knowldge. I don't know I can see both sides.
     
  14. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    I would be willing to bet that most of the people who do not carry now will probably not carry once this has passed ... I carry out of habit more so than anything else and truly pray that I do not have to use my gun at anytime in the future ... Its a comfortable feeling knowing that I can if I have to and being as I am legal anyway this means very little to me personally ... I feel that is more of an issue of rights afforded, We the People than anything else ... My neighbor has asked me several time when he has seen me carrying my Glock why I carry a gun all the time, I simply told him, "Because I can, its my right" ...
    This bill being passed and put into Law will not change much of anything for the most part other than the need to re new peoples CCWs ... The passage of this bill does not make it legal for anyone who is not legal to carry a gun now legal to carry one ... Criminals and convicted felons already carry and they could care less about the laws, so it would only have an effect on others to have a choice to carry concealed or open but with the exclusion of a permit to do so ... I see no problem other than it was not passed a long time ago ... Criminals and Felons get shot and killed a lot of times when trying to break into another persons home, charges are never filed against them and most of them do not have permits, but do have rights to protect their homes and their lifes if they feel threatened ... Thats the way it should be, legally ... Case closed ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  15. Bisi

    Bisi TS Member

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    I'm with wireguy on this one. I shouldn't need permission (permit) from some government clown to protect myself.

    WPT, you wrote in your first post - "I have carried for over 35 years" How in the hell did you do that living in Chitown all those years?
     
  16. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    Bisi,

    I was a part time weapons instructor for the Cook County Sheriffs Police in the 4th District which gave me the right to carry even though I was not technically the Police, I was a sworn Officer ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  17. wireguy

    wireguy TS Member

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    Herb, how about we accept that carrying a handgun all the time is a major pain in the butt and the vast majority of those who take on that responsibility, like 99%, are also going to trouble themselves to know something about what they are doing. It is a rare person who will undertake the work and responsibility of carrying and not also undertake to understand how to use the thing properly. The other 1%? More likely to quit carrying after the initial novelty wears off. Those who can't be troubled to at least minimally perform the work of understanding how to do it properly are un-likely to go to the trouble of continuing to carry.
     
  18. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    "I think each case would have to carry its own merit or lack of and those involved would or should have to be comfortable with their abilitys" ...<<<---- (I did a Lawless) ...

    I know people who will tell you outright they do not feel comfortable and or qualified to carry a gun and this has not prompted them to go to a class to learn how to use one and that probably won't change ... How does anyone figure out who needs to take a class and who doesn't, then who makes that call ..? I have a feeling that when we are given back our freedoms, someone will find a way ot want to restrict them if possible because thats the way its always been ... Then it will start all over again, one step forward and two steps back ... Once passed remember the person who you might be approaching might have a gun and not be one of the Bad Guys ... What a great crime deterent ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  19. HC_John

    HC_John TS Member

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    I like to see that, wish more states including Michigan would follow their lead. In my opinion every form of gun regulation has only worked to take guns away from the law abiding citizen, bad people still get and use guns, no matter what.

    John MI
     
  20. cubancigar2000

    cubancigar2000 Well-Known Member

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    Police Chiefs are appointed by the Mayor normally. We have a dickhead for a chief here in Boise appointed by another one
     
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