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Arguments Against Further Change...

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by spitter, Oct 26, 2011.

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  1. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    Human Nature being what it is, we in general are creatures of habit, we like structure and do not like change. However I started to put pencil to paper and map out possible reasons why folks might resist change to existing rules...
    again, my own opinions using a pair of eyeballs with sufficient astigmatism.

    But, please... feel free to add your own opinions - like I could stop you! (LOL)

    (1) for folks who shoot for money, the pot has dwindled for years and maybe the fear is change will hasten a further decline in options played and pot money.

    (2) the game is still too difficult, folks like improving scores... folks who aspire to reach the 27 yard line, attain a 27AAA27 or Grand Slam; want to be able to attain it and once there, stay there...

    (3) folks argue that easier target presentations have diluted the ranks of those who have shot "more difficult" targets in the past (whatever that may mean)...

    (4) folks argue wider angles would do nothing to increase difficulty and further erode participation...

    (5) Everyone wants to shoot against a "Big Dog"

    (6) not every club can lay more concrete....

    Please chime in...

    best regards,

    Jay
     
  2. IndyShotgun

    IndyShotgun TS Member

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    (7) Americans like the feeling of shooting a high score with a high percentage. Many Americans fear participating in an event where the winning score is in the 80's.
     
  3. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    My argument for change is a simple one. Lay concrete! Been done before, why not again?

    OK, yes, in these times, not every club can do that. My vision would be to start with JUST laying concrete at the Grand. And you would even need to do the whole line. 3-4 banks should suffice, plus 1-2 fields in the shoot-off area. Make a 30 yard line on 12 traps. If you earn ANY honorary yardage in the target year, you start the Grand at the 28 yard line. If you earn yardage during the grand, you move back accordingly. Wherever you end up at the end of the Grand is where you start at the next Grand unless you get a yardage reduction.

    Start with JUST the Grand if the results are positive, then expand to the Satellite Grands -- if that works, then expand to State & Zone shoots.

    Simple, easy, relatively low cost. Make the singles and endurance race, should bring back the "luck" factor into Handicap, and doubles is still for fun. Done & done...

    P.S. I believe Phil Kiner has the same view... I either cribbed his vision or he cribbed mine...
     
  4. IndyShotgun

    IndyShotgun TS Member

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    "My argument for change is a simple one. Lay concrete! Been done before, why not again?"

    Are you going to make the targets bigger? Perhaps put flashing lights on them? This is supposed to be a skills test, not a vision test. Move in closer, and make the targets go faster. The international folks are exactly right on their approach to target presentation.
     
  5. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    If everyone wants a harder target presentation like you assert, then why are people not flocking to bunker trap or sporting clays?
     
  6. vpr80

    vpr80 Active Member

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    I really hate that winning scores require absolute perfection with perfect scores then going into shoot-offs. To me this makes it seem like the sport is too easy and way too many people can do it well. I MUCH prefer the set-up of the International versions (Trap, Sporting, etc) where there ARE misses in competition and winning scores don't require 200 straight then another 200+ in a shoot-off. I am perfectly fine with the winning score being in the 80's, my ego can handle it :)

    jevoliva, my closest bunker trap is like 5 hours and sporting clays is 2.5 hours. trap is 25 min. if either one of those two would be closer, you would not find me at the trap range.
     
  7. IndyShotgun

    IndyShotgun TS Member

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    "If everyone wants a harder target presentation like you assert, then why are people not flocking to bunker trap or sporting clays?"

    They are. Just not in America.
     
  8. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    jevoliva, good thought process guy!

    If we incorporated the experimental 30 yard line at the Grand, to be fair, only yardage earned at the Grand 27 would advance to the new yardage at the current rate. A 27 yard shooter breaking 100 automatically receives 2-1/2 yards of real estate etc. etc.?

    Just food for thought concerning a 30 yard line. At the Vernal,Utah GC, Shaun Hawley and Jerry Parr shot 3 rounds from that magical line number a few years back. One was down 1 target and the other lost 2 in 75 targets!!

    1955 was the last year we had a yardage increase to the current max of 27 from the 25. History tells us what the ammo was like when our delegates made that crucial decision also. Softer shot, felt and cardboard wads and paper cases were the norm for trap loads. Since that change toward making the targets and scores tougher, only one change toward a more difficult presentation has been made, the mandated interrupters in the early 70s. Since, every change has been toward an easier format totally disregarding our historical past! I call that a severe lack of leadership for what's best for our sport.

    Neil W.s post concerning further dumbing down the sport was seriously discussed at the Grand this year and he felt this wouldn't be the last we hear from that crowd? Oh well, at least we know where our leadership wants to lead us these days? This time, they were voted down 60% to 40%. Next time??

    Hap
     
  9. IndyShotgun

    IndyShotgun TS Member

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    "jevoliva, my closest bunker trap is like 5 hours and sporting clays is 2.5 hours. trap is 25 min. if either one of those two would be closer, you would not find me at the trap range."

    If the ATA simply canceled American Trap and moved the entire program to Wobble or Bunker, very few current shooters would quit, and the new form of trap would quickly become what Americans understand trap to be.
     
  10. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Jelovia: Sporting Clays here in Ohio, Southeastern is growing and has been for several years, it is nothing to have 75-100 shooters shoot the course, and many more than once.

    It is a little over an hour drive from me and I shoot there once a week, and about 10 miles closer is a club that I also go to once a week.

    Both clubs have buddy shoots also, and both have a wobble trap that the guys enjoy shooting. we don't care about perfection, just winning.

    We would much rather win on the line outright than have to go to a shootoff.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  11. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    Indy dumb, dumb, and dumber. You don't have a clue.

    Are they flocking to the Cardinal Center to shoot bunker. Have they held any large bunker shoots. Have got your brain up your know where. God get off it.

    Don
     
  12. IndyShotgun

    IndyShotgun TS Member

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    "Indy dumb, dumb, and dumber. You don't have a clue.

    Are they flocking to the Cardinal Center to shoot bunker."

    Don, read my 10:48 post. In fact, read all the posts before you write something. You're always missing large parts of the discussion.
     
  13. vpr80

    vpr80 Active Member

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    Don, relax yourself. He has a valid point. The reason you don't see people flocking to Cardnal for bunker trap is that VERY few people in the country shoot it and there are VERY (like a dozen or so) few bunker ranges in the country. This is the "build it and they will come" theory. No ranges = no shooters.

    While bunker requires a whole new set-up which costs major bucks, wobble does not. At the least we should be seeing wobble trap events in addition to S,H,D.
     
  14. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    BigDon:

    Careful here .... There is a problem with the Bunker at Cardinal Center. Its hardly open. Something like 4 hours a week. I have heard complaints from the bunker community that people have driven over here to shoot only to find it closed. Its what we call a 'Junior Bunker" when the Juniors want to shoot its open otherwise its closed.

    T
     
  15. jevoliva

    jevoliva Member

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    If there is such a demand for harder clay target sports, wouldn't the market drive the building of new facilities and/or more operating hours for the current facilities?

    Indiana State Sporting Clays tournament draws 100-150 people. The NSCA National Championship which started yesterday has approx 1625 entrants. The largest single event at the Grand had 2317 entrants. Over 3400 people shot at least one event at the Grand. Over twice the amount of people shot at the Grand American than at the NSCA National Championship.

    BTW -- they had a wobble event at the Grand this year. Granted it was a side event, but participation was terrible. With that, no winning score was below a 42x50 (Class D) and I doubt that many people practiced hard for this event. Granted there were no 50s, but there were 6 49s that won trophies. Give time to practice, even with shooting at the 20 yard line, perfect scores would become commonplace.

    So, I will ask again, if all of these AMERICAN people WANT a harder target presentation, why have they not flocked to Sporting Clays or Bunker?
     
  16. vpr80

    vpr80 Active Member

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    Here's one for you. How much does it cost to shoot 4 rounds of trap versus a round of sporting clays? That's part of the explanation.
     
  17. Rastoff

    Rastoff Active Member

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    Changing angles, reducing shot load, increasing distance, harder targets, etc., won't change the face of the game. The top shooters will still be the top shooters and the rest of use will still be where we are. It may change the over all numbers, but the rankings/wins will still be the same.

    I agree with jevoliva, if you want more difficult targets, shoot Bunker.
     
  18. releasebob

    releasebob Member

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    I personally have no issue with going back to 3 hole targets I think my scores would stay about the same my issues are mental ability not physical ability my handicap average is higher than my singles average and I am usually one of the last ones standing when annie oakleys get back to 35 or 40 yards,pouring more concrete is not an issue cause I'm probly not going to be standing there anyway I usually take a reduction when I get it and the afore mentioned lack of mental ability.When I shot at local shoots with over a 100 squads lead was $9 a bag gas was $1 something a gallon and I had some expendable income(Ronald Reagan was President)and shooting an 1100 or a field gun wasn't a crime or point of ridicule That would help more than 3 hole targets.BOB
     
  19. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Vpr80, at a major shoot?

    let's see,

    Trap 100 birds, $30-35.
    SC 100 birds, $60-70.
     
  20. dead on 4

    dead on 4 Well-Known Member

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    What I see is an aging population on the trap fields with the bulk of the shooters fifty years old and and above. Yes, there are some shooters in their thirties and forties and a number of youth shooters supported by their families, but it seems the fifty and above crowd anchor the trap lines day over day.

    What none of us see are the steady streams of new shooters that seemed endless thiry years ago. Why? well this always up for debate, but probably number one, society has changed as a whole. We're faced a new younger population who has no interest in shooting sports. Oh! yes, fathers and grandfathers are still handing down their favorite pastime to the younger generation but it's not being embraced in sufficent numbers to sustain the growth we once had.

    So where are we? We have an aging trap shooting population who's on average losing their ability shoot at the same level as their younger years. These shooters still want to shoot and post a decent score, they're not looking for a tougher game. The flip side is the youger shooter who wants a tougher game, but the fact remains, keeping the game the same or changing it will not bring new shooters in sufficent numbers.

    If you're bent on change, then put a wobble attachments on existing machines and call it a day.........


    Surfer
     
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