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Are these guys sandbaggers

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by perga1, Jul 28, 2009.

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  1. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    Two shooters with the following scores:

    shooter 1, Class A singles, 24 yards, B doubles,
    In the last 1,000 targets his handicap scores range from 82-98 with a 94, and 2-92's. The 82 was shot in the main handicap event at his state shoot and the 94 was shot at a small weekend shoot but no punch was received due to a higher score. His only punch was for the 98 shot from the 23 at a Satellite Grand. He has been as far back as the 26 but could not maintain an average above 84 from there. He was punched to the 25 and 26 yard lines at small local shoots and refused 2 reductions when he was reduced to the 25 to try to master the longer yardage.

    Shooter 2, Class A singles, 25 yards after three recent trophies at a state shoot, B dbls.

    In the last 1,000 targets his handicap scores range from 81-98 with a 96, 94, and 3-93's . The 81 was shot in the first prelim event of a state shoot while all the others in the last 1,000 targets were shot in other events at various state shoots. Obviously the 96 and 98 were punched. The 96 was shot from the 23 and the 98 from the 24 yard line. This shooter has been back to the 27 where he held averages of 88+. The only scores available for small shoots for this competitor for this target year revealed scores of 81,81, and 82.

    Do either of these shooters appear to be sandbaggers?
     
  2. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    NO just Average shooters with ups and downs like all average shooters do .
     
  3. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    No. Shooter 1 could be me!
     
  4. markdenis

    markdenis TS Member

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    There are no shooters in this sport that are sandbaggers unless they win. The bigger shoot one wins, the bigger the sandbagger they are labeled with.

    I have seen this many times...A shooter on the 20 yard line or short yardage that breaks very high scores all the time in practice but always posts low scores at big shoots. I am talking about shooters that have done this all their life! Are they sandbaggers? No they are not until they win a big shoot somewhere.
     
  5. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    I shot a 99 in caps once.

    Shot a 78 too.

    Crap happens to "normal" shooters. Leo is crap-proof.

    Don Verna (95.5 avg singles - 24 yards 87.4 avg HC - close to your examples - and definitely NOT a sandbagger)
     
  6. tom berry

    tom berry Active Member

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    Is shooter 2 a vet/sr vet?

    I thought all shooters were 'Y' coded once they made the 27yd line, meaning they couldn't be reduce below the 24 yd line. 'Y' code is waived for Vet/SV.

    I wouldn'd consider either a sandbagger. But, if they're playing the 50's and hitting them, only to tank it on trap for a low score, then maybe.
     
  7. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    Tom Berry, good catch. Shooter 1 is coded with an "R" code shooter 2 is not, yet shooter 2 has shot more high scores at state shoots and more low scores at small shoots without ever getting a punch at a small shoot. When I look at these shooters records I don't see how either shooter could be coded based on their history; yet one is and the other is not. That to me is the problem with a subjective coding system. JRM
     
  8. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    I thought "sandbagger" was defined by the state you come from and not scores or history. LOL

    Bob
     
  9. tom berry

    tom berry Active Member

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    Perga,

    I can't really address the 'R' coding of shooter 1. It seems the 'R' code is a discretionary distiction assigned by the CHC or the shooter's delegate. Maybe shooter 1 has done something to earn the 'R' code in the past and the code is staying with him.

    So, is shooter 2 a V/SV?

    Tom
     
  10. Clay Addict

    Clay Addict Member

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    Oh no....they are talking about me.
     
  11. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    Tom, that's the point. The CHC assigns "R" codes subjectively. Shooter 2 is a recent SV who was on the 27. He recently won trophies at several state shoots in HC, Singles and doubles. He somehow went from the 27 to the 23 after many sub par events then suddenly wins 9 trophies at one state shoot and shoots 100's and 99's in singles and 98's in doubles at major shoots but continues in "A" class in singles and "B" Class in doubles and jumps 2 yards at one State shoot with a 96 and 98 respectively. A subjective method of restricting shooters gives too much power to the one making the decision. Also, a connected member can request a code be applied to a shooter and the good ole boy network takes over and corrupts the whole system. BTW, shooter 1 was coded in April this year after shooting a 98 from the 23, his first really good score in 12 months. JRM
     
  12. tom berry

    tom berry Active Member

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    Perga,

    Do you know what the difference is between and R code and an L code? I see that both exist and have the same definition in the rule book.

    Tom
     
  13. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    perga1, possibly the old guy on the 27 had eye problems or some other such malady? Even under the current reduction method, it would have take him two target years at least to be reduced to the 23? Isn't 3 yards the new max in a target year? May be many reasons he shot terrible for a few thousand targets then come back with a vengeance? Only he knows for sure but after his vast improvement, known ability should have entered the picture somewhere along the line! Hap
     
  14. Tron

    Tron Supporting Vendor Supporting Vendor

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    Yes, they are obviously sandbaggers. Now, it is your ATA duty to do something about this.
     
  15. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Wait...are they from Kentucky?
     
  16. JB Logan Co. Ohio

    JB Logan Co. Ohio TS Member

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    I'll tell you right up front.....I am NOT a SNADBAGGER!

    Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

    JB=Jerry Beach 8503917
     
  17. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    Tom, I don't know the difference, one may be automatic,(objective) and the other may be applied, (subjective) by CHC or active EC member. The whole code thing was secret for most of the history of the ATA and it still isn't clear to me. Hap, what's good for one should be good for all. JRM
     
  18. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    Jerry, I was waiting for that. Tron, A review of shooter 2 has been requested but I don't expect anything will be done. Tim99, no neither shooter is from Kentucky but they are both from the Southern Zone. Jim
     
  19. rob 15

    rob 15 TS Member

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    Why do people worry about the guy who is an amature and might have a good day once in awhile, but not the guy who averages 96+ from the 27 yard line?
     
  20. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    JRM, equality in administering the rule may not be equal to all! That's certainly not the first or last time either.

    One more gripe I have. ATA allows cross registering of targets with PITA and I think that's a very good idea! My complaint, if a shooter is banned from one org. for rule violations, he should be banned by both. That's not the case as it now stands. Hap
     
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